story Story, Wednesday, Oct 23, 2019

[hkmaly 490]

http://egscomics.com/comic/party-078

Of course shippers won't do anything with this page. They were shipping Ashley with both Grace and Nanase already, so nothing new.

Also, yes, we already agreed that Ashley probably thinks Nanase is hitting on her with the way she introduced her fairy ...

It's interesting that everyone predicted it will be TEDD who would Ashley get in sync with about the transformations, but Grace was faster while Tedd didn't really shown anything yet ...

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,619]

Ashley, before you go jumping to conclusions about who may be hitting-on whom, please realize something

Nanase used to date your current boyfriend
Nanase currently dates your current boyfriend's sister

So either the relationship between Ellen & Nanase has an "open" quality of which we had not yet been made aware

Or

Nanase is far more careless than I ever expected

Edited October 23, 2019 by Pharaoh RutinTutin
Oops

[Scotty 1,061]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Also, yes, we already agreed that Ashley probably thinks Nanase is hitting on her with the way she introduced her fairy ...

It's kinda funny that she's just open with letting Elliot know that, but I'm sure Elliot won't be worried about it, I wonder if he's aware that Nanase finds his female forms sexy?

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It's interesting that everyone predicted it will be TEDD who would Ashley get in sync with about the transformations, but Grace was faster while Tedd didn't really shown anything yet ...

Well, for one, Ashley just witnessed Elliot calling Tedd "perfect the way they are" while hugging her, I'm surprised Ashley wasn't like "Well it seems like you and Tedd have got a pretty good 'Friend-ship' going there too."

Of course, the transformations haven't started yet, so there's still time for Tedd and Ashley to click.

 

[Tom Sewell 268]

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

It's kinda funny that she's just open with letting Elliot know that, but I'm sure Elliot won't be worried about it, I wonder if he's aware that Nanase finds his female forms sexy?

Possibly Elliot might become aware when Nanase sees his Rose Elliot form, the one Elliot used at the mall and the one from Elliot and Ashley's first kiss. 

[hkmaly 490]

10 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Ashley, before you go jumping to conclusions about who may be hitting-on whom, please realize something

Nanase used to date your current boyfriend
Nanase currently dates your current boyfriend's sister

So either the relationship between Ellen & Nanase has an "open" quality of which we had not yet been made aware

Or

Nanase is far more careless than I ever expected

You forgot "and both are in the same room seeing her hitting on you".

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It's interesting that everyone predicted it will be TEDD who would Ashley get in sync with about the transformations, but Grace was faster while Tedd didn't really shown anything yet ...

Well, for one, Ashley just witnessed Elliot calling Tedd "perfect the way they are" while hugging her, I'm surprised Ashley wasn't like "Well it seems like you and Tedd have got a pretty good 'Friend-ship' going there too."

I think she got the context for THAT one.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Of course, the transformations haven't started yet, so there's still time for Tedd and Ashley to click.

Tedd is transformed. Grace already transformed herself. But yes I expect more transformations too ...

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

It's kinda funny that she's just open with letting Elliot know that, but I'm sure Elliot won't be worried about it, I wonder if he's aware that Nanase finds his female forms sexy?

Possibly Elliot might become aware when Nanase sees his Rose Elliot form, the one Elliot used at the mall and the one from Elliot and Ashley's first kiss. 

Well he will DEFINITELY become aware when Ellen asks if she can get that form on watches. (No, there is no "if" about that.)

[Scotty 1,061]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

I think she got the context for THAT one.

Actually, does she know Elliot and Tedd's history, she might not know that Elliot's been looking out for Tedd since 4th grade.

Though it is probably clear that Tedd hasn't told anyone that they believe Elliot is the main reason Tedd didn't turn out like Lord Tedd.

7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Tedd is transformed. Grace already transformed herself. But yes I expect more transformations too ...

If Tedd changed their default form before guests started arriving (we don't see them at all, aside from flashbacks, until Ashley, Elliot and Ellen arrived) so does it still count as Tedd transforming during the party?

But yes, Grace, and of course Nanase have already done stuff.

 

 

[Darth Fluffy 338]

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

Actually, does she know Elliot and Tedd's history, she might not know that Elliot's been looking out for Tedd since 4th grade.

Though it is probably clear that Tedd hasn't told anyone that they believe Elliot is the main reason Tedd didn't turn out like Lord Tedd.

There's also a replacement Shade Tail with a different personality. I'm not sure Tedd's aware of that but we are.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

5 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

There's also a replacement Shade Tail with a different personality. I'm not sure Tedd's aware of that but we are.

Well most of them do know that another Shade Tail exists that is nothing like Grace, but they wouldn't know of his influence on Lord Tedd, Tedd might assumed that someone else stepped into Lord Tedd's life instead of someone like Elliot though.

[hkmaly 490]

21 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

On 10/24/2019 at 11:43 AM, Scotty said:

Actually, does she know Elliot and Tedd's history, she might not know that Elliot's been looking out for Tedd since 4th grade.

Though it is probably clear that Tedd hasn't told anyone that they believe Elliot is the main reason Tedd didn't turn out like Lord Tedd.

There's also a replacement Shade Tail with a different personality. I'm not sure Tedd's aware of that but we are.

Tedd protected by Elliot would likely just throw such Shade Tail out, or at least wouldn't let him influence his decisions. I'm pretty sure the main difference IS Elliot.

[The Old Hack 2,489]

11 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Tedd protected by Elliot would likely just throw such Shade Tail out, or at least wouldn't let him influence his decisions. I'm pretty sure the main difference IS Elliot.

So am I.

Mind you, I have long privately entertained the theory that the original Lord Tedd we saw was the end result of a timeline in which there was no Elliot or Ellen to support Tedd.

[Darth Fluffy 338]

11 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

So am I.

Mind you, I have long privately entertained the theory that the original Lord Tedd we saw was the end result of a timeline in which there was no Elliot or Ellen to support Tedd.

Nor Grace, she is the Shade Tail in the main comic universe, and she has been important for Tedd's development.

In the brief Beta Tedd interaction, Beta Tedd seemed well adjusted with no evidence of either Shade Tail, and was in a relationship with Ellen, so that supports your point that Elliot and Ellen are more crucial.

Lord Tedd has Nioi, who may not be a girlfriend, but is definitely a positive factor; Elliot/Ellen appears to be absent. She sees him in a different light, perhaps manipulated by General Shade Tail, but we've seen contradictory panels where he is attempting to proactively kill off other Tedds, apparently on his own initiative. I kind of figure Dan's plans for this story line changed, kind of like how Susan and Diane were morphed and recycled.

Ellen's dream world Tedd says, "I'm no good." as a child, apparently a self assessment of his own personality (he was good at kickball, meaning he wasn't referring to that.)

In Magus's universe, Tera and Ellen seem to have some kind of at least friend relationship. It's not at all clear what her negative side would be without him, nor if it has manifested in his absence. Probably doesn't help that she was personally involved in his disappearance,  and it seems that an unspecified third party set him up.

It is not at all clear why Tedd has issues in multiple universes. Bullying and early estrangement are likely common factors, and the ones we've seen appear to be similarly gifted with magic abilities and perhaps technical tinkering, although Tera seems to have more of a direct casting ability, which Tedd cannot do. The key factor of abandonment by his mother is only stated for the main  universe.

Honestly, the multi-universe aspect is not my favorite part of the comic, and I'm glad it's on the back burner. There's enough happening in the main universe.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

In the brief Beta Tedd interaction, Beta Tedd seemed well adjusted with no evidence of either Shade Tail, and was in a relationship with Ellen, so that supports your point that Elliot and Ellen are more crucial.

Beta Ellen would certainly be filling the role of both Elliot and Grace in that regard.

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Lord Tedd has Nioi, who may not be a girlfriend, but is definitely a positive factor; Elliot/Ellen appears to be absent. She sees him in a different light, perhaps manipulated by General Shade Tail, but we've seen contradictory panels where he is attempting to proactively kill off other Tedds, apparently on his own initiative. I kind of figure Dan's plans for this story line changed,

I think the Lord Tedd story is going to be built around what was shown in Painted Black, and there'll probably be a reasonable explanation for what we saw in Sister, like maybe General Shade Tail had somehow convinced Lord Tedd that other universe versions would become a threat to him.

As to why focus on alternate universes? Maybe General Shade Tail is looking for something that doesn't exist in their universe, but does in another, and it's somehow related to Tedd?

[ijuin 594]

On the other hand, General Shade Tail may have pushed Lord Tedd into some sort of “there can be only one” gambit whereby there is something concrete to be gained by eliminating rival Tedds.

[Don Edwards 561]

On the third hand, how many Tedds would actually be rivals?

[The Old Hack 2,489]

4 hours ago, ijuin said:

On the other hand, General Shade Tail may have pushed Lord Tedd into some sort of “there can be only one” gambit whereby there is something concrete to be gained by eliminating rival Tedds.

I was actually thinking nearly the exact opposite. That Lord Tedd was involved in some sort of gambit where he was pushing other Tedds into growing more powerful by sending them strong but not unkillable challenges. We already know that if you push Tedd hard enough, he can get nasty. Lord Tedd would obviously be aware of this. In other words, 'kill weak Tedd' might be coded speech for 'force Tedd to become stronger.'

As to precisely why he would want to do this I am not sure. Possibly some sort of interdimensional threat exists that would require more than one Lord Tedd to deal with. Possibly some strange matter of pride. Or just possibly something in his own world that he needs to deal with that will ultimately require allies of his own power level, even reluctant ones...

[hkmaly 490]

15 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

16 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Mind you, I have long privately entertained the theory that the original Lord Tedd we saw was the end result of a timeline in which there was no Elliot or Ellen to support Tedd.

Nor Grace, she is the Shade Tail in the main comic universe, and she has been important for Tedd's development.

In the brief Beta Tedd interaction, Beta Tedd seemed well adjusted with no evidence of either Shade Tail, and was in a relationship with Ellen, so that supports your point that Elliot and Ellen are more crucial.

Grace arrived too late. Also Ellen arrived too late in this universe, but obviously Beta Ellen was there earlier for Beta Tedd.

15 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Lord Tedd has Nioi, who may not be a girlfriend, but is definitely a positive factor; Elliot/Ellen appears to be absent. She sees him in a different light,

And I think that Nioi is good example of someone who COULD have the good influence on Tedd but arrived too late.

15 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

In Magus's universe, Tera and Ellen seem to have some kind of at least friend relationship. It's not at all clear what her negative side would be without him, nor if it has manifested in his absence. Probably doesn't help that she was personally involved in his disappearance,  and it seems that an unspecified third party set him up.

.... yeah, getting Magus back could be more important that it seems ...

15 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

It is not at all clear why Tedd has issues in multiple universes. Bullying and early estrangement are likely common factors, and the ones we've seen appear to be similarly gifted with magic abilities and perhaps technical tinkering, although Tera seems to have more of a direct casting ability, which Tedd cannot do. The key factor of abandonment by his mother is only stated for the main  universe.

13 hours ago, Scotty said:

like maybe General Shade Tail had somehow convinced Lord Tedd that other universe versions would become a threat to him.

Different Tedds live in different universes with different rules of magic. Our Tedd is seer, Tera is not - or it means something very different in her universe. But there definitely seem to be something special about them ... and General Shade Tail might have some idea about WHAT it is.

2 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

On the third hand, how many Tedds would actually be rivals?

Depends ... how much choice do they have?

Other Tedds might be threat for some reason without meaning to.
Although I like the alternative mentioned by The Old Hack better.

2 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I was actually thinking nearly the exact opposite. That Lord Tedd was involved in some sort of gambit where he was pushing other Tedds into growing more powerful by sending them strong but not unkillable challenges. We already know that if you push Tedd hard enough, he can get nasty. Lord Tedd would obviously be aware of this. In other words, 'kill weak Tedd' might be coded speech for 'force Tedd to become stronger.'

Yes, it did sounded something like this ... on the other hand, he did looked unsatisfied with our Tedd performance. Might be because he had too much help from friends, of course ...

... I sort of suspect that Lord Tedd - or at least General Shade Tail - considers the possibility that some Tedds fail the challenge and die acceptable. Evolutionary aspect - "grow stronger or die".

8 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

As to precisely why he would want to do this I am not sure. Possibly some sort of interdimensional threat exists that would require more than one Lord Tedd to deal with. Possibly some strange matter of pride. Or just possibly something in his own world that he needs to deal with that will ultimately require allies of his own power level, even reluctant ones...

If he has access to infinite dimensions, why wouldn't he select just suitable Tedds? Either his dimensional traveling is more limited that it seems, or it IS interdimensional threat which require as more worlds to be protected as possible.

[The Old Hack 2,489]

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

If he has access to infinite dimensions, why wouldn't he select just suitable Tedds? Either his dimensional traveling is more limited that it seems, or it IS interdimensional threat which require as more worlds to be protected as possible.

To be frank, I really have no idea. It is just wild-ass speculation on my part. <scratches head>

[ChronosCat 158]

15 hours ago, ijuin said:

On the other hand, General Shade Tail may have pushed Lord Tedd into some sort of “there can be only one” gambit whereby there is something concrete to be gained by eliminating rival Tedds.

Something like this (perhaps minus Shade Tail orchestrating things) does seem to have been Dan's original plan; I'm pretty sure Dan admitted at one point that Lord Tedd as originally presented was inspired by the movie "The One" (which involved a villain who became more powerful the more alternate universe versions of himself he killed).

11 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I was actually thinking nearly the exact opposite. That Lord Tedd was involved in some sort of gambit where he was pushing other Tedds into growing more powerful by sending them strong but not unkillable challenges. We already know that if you push Tedd hard enough, he can get nasty. Lord Tedd would obviously be aware of this. In other words, 'kill weak Tedd' might be coded speech for 'force Tedd to become stronger.'

I've thought the same. It seems the best way to reconcile what we learned of Lord Tedd in Sister and Painted Black.

I have to wonder however if Dan will have changed the story again by time we actually get around to Lord Tedd being relevant again...

11 hours ago, hkmaly said:

If he has access to infinite dimensions, why wouldn't he select just suitable Tedds? Either his dimensional traveling is more limited that it seems, or it IS interdimensional threat which require as more worlds to be protected as possible.

I don't feel like searching for it right now, but I believe Dan said back in the Keenspot days that the EGS multiverse is comprised of a finite number of universes. Of course it's been so long he could have changed his mind, but the finite multiverse is probably what he had in mind when he wrote the Lord Tedd stuff back in Painted Black.

[The Old Hack 2,489]

7 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

I don't feel like searching for it right now, but I believe Dan said back in the Keenspot days that the EGS multiverse is comprised of a finite number of universes. Of course it's been so long he could have changed his mind, but the finite multiverse is probably what he had in mind when he wrote the Lord Tedd stuff back in Painted Black.

<scratches head> I don't have an actual problem with that. It's just that the idea of 'finite multiverse' seems a little odd to me. It strikes me that having just one universe would be okay, that having an infinite potential number is also okay, but having a finite number just seems... well. I can't explain it, really. I have no logical explanation for it, but it feels off to me.

Maybe only having a finite number of universes in _reach_ would be a better explanation. Hrm.

[Don Edwards 561]

The number of universes sufficiently similar to the main one to have a Tedd in them, would probably be a tiny fraction of the number of universes.

Of course, a tiny fraction of infinity...

[The Old Hack 2,489]

15 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

Of course, a tiny fraction of infinity...

Infinity is a funny thing. And even a finite number can be astronomically large. I am fairly sure there is a finite number of stars in our galaxy. I am also fairly sure that there is a lot of them.

I remember once running a plot in a superhero game that involved the mighty Finity Gauntlet. It gave its wearer finite power. It was still a worrisome problem because while its power was finite, there was still a lot of it.

[Darth Fluffy 338]

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Infinity is a funny thing. And even a finite number can be astronomically large. I am fairly sure there is a finite number of stars in our galaxy. I am also fairly sure that there is a lot of them.

I remember once running a plot in a superhero game that involved the mighty Finity Gauntlet. It gave its wearer finite power. It was still a worrisome problem because while its power was finite, there was still a lot of it.

I think we have a better handle on the notion of infinities than we do on finite, but very large numbers that we can't even notate.

[The Old Hack 2,489]

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I think we have a better handle on the notion of infinities than we do on finite, but very large numbers that we can't even notate.

It kind of reminds me of the problem we had before positional notation was invented. Try writing 'one million' with Roman numerals and see how far you get before it becomes unmanageably complex to see what is going on.

[hkmaly 490]

10 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

On 10/26/2019 at 11:38 PM, ijuin said:

On the other hand, General Shade Tail may have pushed Lord Tedd into some sort of “there can be only one” gambit whereby there is something concrete to be gained by eliminating rival Tedds.

Something like this (perhaps minus Shade Tail orchestrating things) does seem to have been Dan's original plan; I'm pretty sure Dan admitted at one point that Lord Tedd as originally presented was inspired by the movie "The One" (which involved a villain who became more powerful the more alternate universe versions of himself he killed).

If I remember correctly, in that movie the same would be true for EVERYONE, it's just that the mentioned villain actually tried that. Of course the science behind this idea is so bad I would be disappointed if it showed in EGS ... so I hope Dan revisited that or found some interesting way how to make it work for Tedd specifically.

10 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

I have to wonder however if Dan will have changed the story again by time we actually get around to Lord Tedd being relevant again...

I don't think at that point we would be able to figure how many times it changed, unless there will be some bonus speaking about it like it was after Painted Black, or it would be mentioned in commentary like with the Dewitchery Diamond ...

10 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

10 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

I don't feel like searching for it right now, but I believe Dan said back in the Keenspot days that the EGS multiverse is comprised of a finite number of universes. Of course it's been so long he could have changed his mind, but the finite multiverse is probably what he had in mind when he wrote the Lord Tedd stuff back in Painted Black.

<scratches head> I don't have an actual problem with that. It's just that the idea of 'finite multiverse' seems a little odd to me. It strikes me that having just one universe would be okay, that having an infinite potential number is also okay, but having a finite number just seems... well. I can't explain it, really. I have no logical explanation for it, but it feels off to me.

Maybe only having a finite number of universes in _reach_ would be a better explanation. Hrm.

The problem is that if it's finite number, then WHY exactly that number? Say the number is 1234567. Why not 1234568? Physical laws just don't work that way. Sure, it doesn't need to be just 1 or infinity, but the explanation for specific number tends to get more complicated the higher number it is.

Meanwhile, there is no problem with having just finite number in reach. Especially if it's limit of device, not the theory behind it. In fact, any specific device is likely to only be capable of reaching finite number of universes, because either it can address them somehow (in finite way) or it's completely random but will eventually break.

Note that in last explanation, the number of universes was not specified, but the provided examples of "where lost socks go" and "steven universe" would suggest there is enough of them to cover even very nonsensical things.

8 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Of course, a tiny fraction of infinity...

... is usually more or less just as big. In fact, you would need a VERY exotic definition of "fraction" to make it smaller. Normal "fraction" will end up just a variation of Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel.

8 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I am fairly sure there is a finite number of stars in our galaxy. I am also fairly sure that there is a lot of them.

The number is actually rather small - astronomers think it's about 250 billion ± 150 billion. There are more of them in Andromeda Galaxy.

5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

6 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I think we have a better handle on the notion of infinities than we do on finite, but very large numbers that we can't even notate.

It kind of reminds me of the problem we had before positional notation was invented. Try writing 'one million' with Roman numerals and see how far you get before it becomes unmanageably complex to see what is going on.

Well if you "notate" in something as obsolete and primitive as arabic numerals ...

For big numbers, you need Knuth's up-arrow notation. And if you somehow happen to need even bigger finite numbers, you can find inspiration about how to write them in Graham's number. Of course, there are also functions you CANT compute growing asymptotically faster than any functions you CAN compute. Which I would say answers the question about how good handle mathematicians have on really big finite numbers.

 

[The Old Hack 2,489]

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The number is actually rather small - astronomers think it's about 250 billion ± 150 billion. There are more of them in Andromeda Galaxy.

I still think that from one to four hundred billion may nonetheless be stretched far enough to include 'a lot.' All is relative, of course. When compared to the number of atoms in the galaxy, that number becomes vanishingly small.