NP Friday June 3, 2016

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

Only if the Steeple Chase actually involves chasing a steeple.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

6 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Yeah, I've seen seveeral different fanon explanations for that line.  My personal one is that the Kessel is something the ship is chasing, and the goal is to catch it as quickly as possible.  The Kessel didn't even get twelve parsecs before he'd caught it.  :-)

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Okay, so maybe Kessel is where the run starts, where the whatever it is gets released from.  :-)

Also, the Aluminum Falcon Millennium Falcon lacks a docking bay or any kind of grapler arm. How exactly does one capture a moving object in space without the proper facilities?

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

Um, did you miss the part about it being my personal headcanon?  I'm not enough of a Star Wars geek to have memorized planet histories and atmospheres, or technical schematics of ships, etc.  It's an idea I came up with at least a couple of decades ago.  That said, we could probably go back and forth, with you coming up with little details that contradict the latest iteration and me coming up with ways to incorporate them, forever.  Such as, maybe they don't have to capture the target, just catch up to it, or maybe it's small enough to collect through the hatch they used to retrieve Luke when he dropped from the city in the clouds.  I don't really want to keep going with this, especially not take over the thread with it.  :-)

[hkmaly 490]

20 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

On 06/04/2016 at 0:56 AM, hkmaly said:

Sci-fi authors usually pay lot of attention to the verifiable parts of their work. 

Yeah! And the Millennium Falcon made the Kessel Run in just twelve parsec!

I'm sure I already mentioned I consider Star Wars more fantasy than sci-fi.

(Also, "usually".)

19 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

Given the original script had ben kenobi rolling his eyes at han when he said that, (you can find it online, check google) I think it was meant to be wrong on purpose, at first. like a "you idiot, you don't even know what you're saying, do you?" moment.

Also this.

19 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

I blame Lucas.

Who else? Anything bad in Star Wars is either because he wanted it that way or because he wasn't able to correct when someone else did the mistake. Or because he sold it to Disney.

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

20 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

On 6/4/2016 at 4:56 PM, hkmaly said:

Sci-fi authors usually pay lot of attention to the verifiable parts of their work. 

Yeah! And the Millennium Falcon made the Kessel Run in just twelve parsec!

I'm sure I already mentioned I consider Star Wars more fantasy than sci-fi.

there is a genre half way between the two you know.

Quote

Science fantasy versus science fiction[edit]

Distinguishing between science fiction and fantasy, Rod Serling claimed that the former was "the improbable made possible" while the latter was "the impossible made probable".^[1] As a combination of the two, science fantasy gives a scientific veneer of realism to things that simply could not happen in the real world under any circumstances. Where science fiction does not permit the existence of fantasy or supernatural elements, science fantasy explicitly relies upon them.

And I'm pretty sure The Force as it was originally described lands it firmly in said genre.

[Don Edwards 548]

What do you mean "originally"? If humans couldn't have telekinetic/etc. powers WITHOUT some special sort of microorganism, how does it make scientific sense for the microorganisms to grant such powers?

(Of course, it remains indisputable scientific fact that "midichlorians" were a really bad answer to a question nobody was asking.)

[InfiniteRemnant 141]

i say originally because i don't want to touch that shoddy plot-patch with a 10 foot pole let alone analyze it.

4, 5 & 2 are the only movies in that series i liked anyway...

[Howitzer 32]

I'd like to point out that the word "parsec" shouldn't be in Star Wars at all.

The distance of a parsec is calculated based on Earth's orbit around the Sun. It's useful because you can calculate how far a celestial body is from Earth by calculating what it's angle in the sky is, then waiting half a year, and making the same calculation again. Because the Earth is on the other side of the Sun when you make the second calculation, the angle will be slightly different, and you can use basic trigonometry to calculate the distance. (A parsec is about 3.26 light years.)

As Earth isn't in Star Wars (it takes place in "a galaxy far, far away"), there's absolutely no reason to have a unit of distance that's based on the size of Earth's orbit.

QED

[hkmaly 490]

(sorry for doublepost)

[hkmaly 490]

35 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

there is a genre half way between the two you know.

That doesn't change the fact that on the continuous line between pure fantasy and pure sci-fi, Star Wars is closer to fantasy. Anyway, good authors don't let existing genre limit their creativity, and bad authors are not able to hit the target they aim for, so no wonder drawing borders between genres is so hard task.

7 minutes ago, Howitzer said:

The distance of a parsec is calculated based on Earth's orbit around the Sun. It's useful because you can calculate how far a celestial body is from Earth by calculating what it's angle in the sky is, then waiting half a year, and making the same calculation again. Because the Earth is on the other side of the Sun when you make the second calculation, the angle will be slightly different, and you can use basic trigonometry to calculate the distance. (A parsec is about 3.26 light years.)

As Earth isn't in Star Wars (it takes place in "a galaxy far, far away"), there's absolutely no reason to have a unit of distance that's based on the size of Earth's orbit.

1) Earth likely IS in Star Wars universe. It may not be near, but they have fast ships

2) Parsec in Star Wars can be defined based on different planet's orbit, just like other units - year, month and day are all based on Earth properties, or for example foot or mile which are based on people's measurement can be based on any other species measurement instead. I'm sure days and years were mentioned in Star Wars, not sure about miles and feet, but it wouldn't surprise me ...

[Howitzer 32]

7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That doesn't change the fact that on the continuous line between pure fantasy and pure sci-fi, Star Wars is closer to fantasy.

I'd go farther then that and just say that Star Wars is fantasy.  It's just happens to be fantasy with a sci-fi paint job. Scratch the paint off, and you've totally got elves, orcs, swords, and wizards.

[Vorlonagent 442]

47 minutes ago, Howitzer said:

I'd go farther then that and just say that Star Wars is fantasy.  It's just happens to be fantasy with a sci-fi paint job. Scratch the paint off, and you've totally got elves, orcs, swords, and wizards.

I approve of this message....

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Howitzer said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That doesn't change the fact that on the continuous line between pure fantasy and pure sci-fi, Star Wars is closer to fantasy.

I'd go farther then that and just say that Star Wars is fantasy.  It's just happens to be fantasy with a sci-fi paint job. Scratch the paint off, and you've totally got elves, orcs, swords, and wizards.

But the paint still counts! ... well, not for much, but at least a little.

(Waaaait ... what will appear under the "Death Star" paint? It's pretty important plot element and IMHO hard to replace with something from pure fantasy. You can replace other starships with normal ships, but Death Star would then still end up being something on too big technology level to be acceptable in fantasy - carrier maybe. Unless ... maybe you can replace Death Star with flying island and fighters with dragons. That might work, although it still sounds at least little technological as the island will still need to be build. Likely by dwarves or gnomes.)

[Howitzer 32]

50 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

But the paint still counts! ... well, not for much, but at least a little.

(Waaaait ... what will appear under the "Death Star" paint? It's pretty important plot element and IMHO hard to replace with something from pure fantasy. You can replace other starships with normal ships, but Death Star would then still end up being something on too big technology level to be acceptable in fantasy - carrier maybe. Unless ... maybe you can replace Death Star with flying island and fighters with dragons. That might work, although it still sounds at least little technological as the island will still need to be build. Likely by dwarves or gnomes.)

Scratch off the Death Star paint and you get Sauron. Wherever he gazes, doom follows.

[hkmaly 490]

49 minutes ago, Howitzer said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

 

Scratch off the Death Star paint and you get Sauron. Wherever he gazes, doom follows.

Sauron doesn't have a disadvantage you can easily exploit with correct intelligence to destroy- ... oh wait yes he does. Wouldn't explain how would the Emperor (Melkor?) build second one.

(New Hope alone is really painted thin ; But if you consider whole hexalogy - or nonalogy - it becames harder to replace all elements consistently. Also, the part of LOTR where Sauron forged One Ring is little technological ... the resulting "pretty" numbers notwithstanding, it was implied that basically nothing prevented elves to make the rings in hundreds, given enough time.)

Note: didn't get opportunity to make it really on-topic, but to the general sci-fi versus fantasy debate, this is important.

Another point to discussion: the difference between fantasy and sci-fi isn't if the sword is magic fire sword or plasma-based weapon ; it's that in fantasy, Hero found the sword in a dungeon and that's all origin story needed ; in sci-fi, the sword was constructed by someone, and that someone can construct another, teach someone else to do it or explain the process to audience. New Hope doesn't pass this test - Luke get the sword uh lightsaber from Obi-Wan Kenobi and we have no idea how old it is or where it came from ; in next episode, Luke is able to build new one: it got turned into technology.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Sauron doesn't have a disadvantage you can easily exploit with correct intelligence to destroy- ... oh wait yes he does. Wouldn't explain how would the Emperor (Melkor?) build second one.

The second Death Star is equivalent to the Lord of the Rings series.  Sauron had been powerful in the past, and was defeated; now Sarumon is trying to bring him back, but he isn't quite there yet when the good guys destroy him.

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Another point [for] discussion: the difference between fantasy and sci-fi

I was always taught that the difference between fantasy and science-fiction is that in fantasy, dragons can hover, and in science fiction, they can't.

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

 in fantasy, Hero found the sword in a dungeon and that's all origin story needed ; in sci-fi, the sword was constructed by someone, and that someone can construct another, teach someone else to do it or explain the process to audience.  New Hope doesn't pass this test - Luke get the sword uh lightsaber from Obi-Wan Kenobi and we have no idea how old it is or where it came from ; in next episode, Luke is able to build new one: it got turned into technology.

Just so happens I've been reading and watching Game of Thrones, in which there is a powerful sword with a detailed and bloody creation story.  The technique for reforging Valeryan steel into a new sword is a closely guarded trade secret, but it can be taught and passed on to another.  I doubt many would argue that GoT is science fiction.  Even your Star Wars example doesn't hold up; Luke's father built the lightsaber Obi Wan gives him, and as part of his training he learns the techniques and constructs a new one.

 

[The Old Hack 2,450]

Actually, Star Wars borrows from a LOT of genres. It has Wild West elements (gunfights, harrowing chase scenes, greedy gunslinger hero (Han Solo) and bounty hunters), classical martial arts (Betrayal of the Old Masters, Loss/Retraining/Confrontation, a lone avenger against those who pulled the Shaolin Monastery/Jedi Council down, the purity of spirit against the corruption of the heart), space opera (spaceships, big battles, superweapons), fantasy (old wizard mentors young apprentice, magical swords, swordfights, rescued princess). The one thing I would say is hardest to justify is science fiction since even soft sci fi usually tries to maintain some of the tropes (sound does not travel in vacuum, for example.) Still, space opera is occasionally close to soft science fiction, so maybe.

[Howitzer 32]

Eh, eventually everything works its way back to Gilgamesh. 

[hkmaly 490]

15 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Sauron doesn't have a disadvantage you can easily exploit with correct intelligence to destroy- ... oh wait yes he does. Wouldn't explain how would the Emperor (Melkor?) build second one.

The second Death Star is equivalent to the Lord of the Rings series.  Sauron had been powerful in the past, and was defeated; now Sarumon is trying to bring him back, but he isn't quite there yet when the good guys destroy him.

Wait what? Did you actually READ the Lord of the Rings? Saruman was NEVER trying to bring Sauron back ; he actually planned to backstab him. (Although probably not AS literally as happened to Saruman later. Maybe.)

15 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Quote

Another point [for] discussion: the difference between fantasy and sci-fi

I was always taught that the difference between fantasy and science-fiction is that in fantasy, dragons can hover, and in science fiction, they can't.

Well there are obviously lot of differences and any sentence sounding like you are just mentioning the only one is just figure of speech. Also, note that even in sci-fi dragons can hover, if they are lighter than air (usually that means small dragons and lot of hydrogen involved). But it's true that if fantasy says they can't, it's not pure fantasy: in pure fantasy, dragons can fly because magic and that's enough to explain ANY kind of flying. When moving from fantasy to sci-fi, dragons generally get bigger wings, lighter "armor" and start getting problems with stall when flying too slow.

(BTW, one reason Hobbit (movie) is fantasy: if you cover anything with gold in sci-fi, it gets MUCH heavier ; dragon covered with gold wouldn't be able to fly, it will hardly be able to move.)

15 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I doubt many would argue that GoT is science fiction.

Obviously it's not sci-fi, but it's not pure fantasy either. The song of Ice and Fire actually deals with return of magic to land ; they got little or no magic (and dragons went extinct), then something happened (don't spoiler what if it already appeared) and magic started returning. That's not something which could happen in pure fantasy. In pure fantasy, if you remove magic the sun falls down and the air disperse and escapes (ok, that MIGHT be exaggeration, but even if you happen to have pure fantasy on round world there would be just too many stuff not working without magic.)

15 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Luke's father built the lightsaber Obi Wan gives him

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in New Hope ; it certainly wasn't RELEVANT. It only started to be relevant in next episodes, namely Empire strikes back.

8 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

(sound does not travel in vacuum, for example.)

Actually, even very sci-fi movies happens to have "too sensitive laser microphones".

8 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Actually, Star Wars borrows from a LOT of genres.

The more genres you try to define, the less likely is you will be able to find pure examples of single genre, until you arrive at point where you start having one-movie genres of course. Yes, you can divide space opera from sci-fi, but it will still remain close. But note that wiki calls it subgenre.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Wait what? Did you actually READ the Lord of the Rings? 

I watched it.  I did not specify books vs movies, but we were comparing to a movie, and the LotR movies do not get into any of that.  Whether there was a plan to double-cross him ("steal the Death Star") afterwards or not, he was involved in bringing Sauron back to power (rebuilding the Death Star) and it's still a perfectly good analogy.

Quote

  I'm not sure if it was mentioned in New Hope ; it certainly wasn't RELEVANT. It only started to be relevant in next episodes, namely Empire strikes back.

And many fantasies introduce the ancient weapon early on, and don't get into its history until later.

Quote

Actually, even very sci-fi movies happens to have "too sensitive laser microphones".

Never understood the fuss about hearing explosions in space.  The camera is omniscient, it's picking up audio from *on* both your ship and the exploding enemy ship.  And you can definitely hear the explosion from on/in the thing that's exploding.

Quote

The more genres you try to define, the less likely is you will be able to find pure examples of single genre, until you arrive at point where you start having one-movie genres of course. Yes, you can divide space opera from sci-fi, but it will still remain close. But note that wiki calls it subgenre.

The Site That Will Destroy Your Life defines Science Fantasy as a subgenre of Speculative Fiction, just like Alternate History, Steampunk, and other variations and combinations, and Science-Fiction and Fantasy themselves.

[hkmaly 490]

16 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Wait what? Did you actually READ the Lord of the Rings? 

I watched it.  I did not specify books vs movies, but we were comparing to a movie, and the LotR movies do not get into any of that.  Whether there was a plan to double-cross him ("steal the Death Star") afterwards or not, he was involved in bringing Sauron back to power (rebuilding the Death Star) and it's still a perfectly good analogy.

Even in movies, Saruman orcs repeatedly argued with Sauron ones, but it's true their relationship may be less apparent. I can assure you that Sauron didn't needed Saruman's help to get to power, and he did not really GET much help from him, although that was mainly because Gandalf interfered ; if Saruman succeeded in keeping Rohan out of war, it WOULD help Sauron somewhat.

(Of course, if Frodo wouldn't destroy the Ring, united West armies would be slaughtered in Battle of the Black Gate, even with Rohan. They were outnumbered AND didn't really have anything to match Trolls and Nazgûls. And presumably, in game terms, had lower leadership.)

22 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

And you can definitely hear the explosion from on/in the thing that's exploding.

Only until the bits get too far to keep enough air inside. But, as I said, laser microphones getting the sound from the scrap itself could actually explain it.

 

[The Old Hack 2,450]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Only until the bits get too far to keep enough air inside. But, as I said, laser microphones getting the sound from the scrap itself could actually explain it.

Don't be silly. They didn't have laser microphones in 1977 when the first Star Wars movie was made. Not on that budget, anyway.

[ijuin 576]

A more practical reason would be the combat computers generating sound for the benefit of the flight crew. A fighter pilot can not look in all directions at once, yet it is very useful for him to know when something explodes nearby, so having the computer generate an "explosion" sound that (relative to the pilot) seems to come from the direction of the exploding object would be a very practical way of alerting him to it. The same would apply to incoming slower-than-light weapons fire--the computer would alert the pilot that an enemy in "that direction" has just launched a missile/fired ballistic projectiles/plasma bolts/whatever.

[hkmaly 490]

17 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Only until the bits get too far to keep enough air inside. But, as I said, laser microphones getting the sound from the scrap itself could actually explain it.

Don't be silly. They didn't have laser microphones in 1977 when the first Star Wars movie was made. Not on that budget, anyway.

If they could afford several starships ... oh, right, those were fake. Well, so were the microphones and the vacuum.

16 hours ago, ijuin said:

A more practical reason would be the combat computers generating sound for the benefit of the flight crew. A fighter pilot can not look in all directions at once, yet it is very useful for him to know when something explodes nearby, so having the computer generate an "explosion" sound that (relative to the pilot) seems to come from the direction of the exploding object would be a very practical way of alerting him to it. The same would apply to incoming slower-than-light weapons fire--the computer would alert the pilot that an enemy in "that direction" has just launched a missile/fired ballistic projectiles/plasma bolts/whatever.

That's good explanation for explosion sounds for fighters, yes. For bigger ships it stops making sense.

[The Old Hack 2,450]

3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If they could afford several starships ... oh, right, those were fake. Well, so were the microphones and the vacuum.

Don't be ridiculous. They used real microphones. Without them, Star Wars would have been a silent movie.