np NP, Monday October 31, 2016

[mlooney 3,417]

Ah, guys? A some of points

1. Magic
2. Laws of physics are polite suggestions in EGS
3. Not that it really matters but the smallest mammal weighs less than 2 grams.
4. Also not that it matters the smallest primate weighs less than 30 grams.

Until you get under either of those weights, you really don't have to talk about if something that size can survive. 

[K^2 2]

Points 1. and 2. are acknowledged. This isn't a discussion about what can and cannot be done with magic, but rather what sort of EGS magic is most impressive when contrasted to limitations of real world.

And yeah, you could replace internal human anatomy and metabolism with another mammal's, keeping in mind that you'll be forced to adjust some proportions. But even then, on the extreme end of 1/7th scale, it's not clear what to do about the cerebral cortex. There are animals with somewhat higher neuron density, but not by a factor of 343 we are talking about here.

[Haylo 57]

Magic most likely uses options that Science doesn't know about. Instead of shrinking a complex life-form, put it elsewhere (perhaps in the space between the two halves of the world?) and go first-person with a fairy doll, which doesn't have to support life or intelligence for itself.  Dex's fairy can be created with only Dex's power level (probably made easier because it has neither persistence like Nanase's nor stored energy such as Susan's releases when prematurely dismissed), so Rhoda might have plenty of magic to sustain a "mini-Catalina" which can be compressed as easily as a foam-rubber doll.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

5 hours ago, Haylo said:

Dex's fairy can be created with only Dex's power level (probably made easier because it has neither persistence like Nanase's nor stored energy such as Susan's releases when prematurely dismissed), 

Point of order -- we don't actually know whether Dex's fairydoll releases energy when dismissed prematurely.  We haven't seen him dismiss one "on-camera" yet.  Technically we don't even know for certain whether his fairydolls are persistent, except that no one has said so, and we assume it would be noteworthy enough to mention at some point.  We don't actually know much at all about Dex's spell, so we can't assume what power level he's at.  For all we know, Dex can summon a dozen fairydolls at once, and they can all shoot little laser beams or swing tiny lightsabers.  ;-)

[Don Edwards 548]

I don't know that Dex's fairy having persistence would have been mentioned at the time. The kids didn't have all that much experience with summoned fairies - Nanase's fairydolls have always been permanent. None of their other summons have been persistent, but that isn't a huge sample size either. So if Dex's fairy is permanent, they probably wouldn't have realized that the fact was noteworthy.

[mlooney 3,417]

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

 For all we know, Dex can summon a dozen fairydolls at once, and they can all shoot little laser beams or swing tiny lightsabers.  ;-)

I accept this as canon.

[Cpt. Obvious 73]

11 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

I don't know that Dex's fairy having persistence would have been mentioned at the time. The kids didn't have all that much experience with summoned fairies - Nanase's fairydolls have always been permanent. None of their other summons have been persistent, but that isn't a huge sample size either. So if Dex's fairy is permanent, they probably wouldn't have realized that the fact was noteworthy.

The entire problem with creating and destroying mass can easily be avoided if persistence isn't needed. Say Dex fairy isn't persistent then there's no reason it couldn't be a complex illusion, basically the same idea as the holodeck in ST. Optical illusion complemented with forcefields mimicking surface textures. This should easily be within the capabilities of magic. One problem might be the continuous power needed to maintain the illusions. A summoning like Nanase's that creates a physical object would require a lot of energy for the initial summoning, but not much of a drain to maintain.

It would also mean that when dismissed the illusion will just fade without any huge release of energy.
 

[Scotty 1,061]

2 minutes ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

The entire problem with creating and destroying mass can easily be avoided if persistence isn't needed. Say Dex fairy isn't persistent then there's no reason it couldn't be a complex illusion, basically the same idea as the holodeck in ST. Optical illusion complemented with forcefields mimicking surface textures. This should easily be within the capabilities of magic. One problem might be the continuous power needed to maintain the illusions. A summoning like Nanase's that creates a physical object would require a lot of energy for the initial summoning, but not much of a drain to maintain.

It would also mean that when dismissed the illusion will just fade without any huge release of energy.
 

It's actually interesting that Susan was able to summon and unsummon other items with no issue, yet the fairies go boom when dismissed. Makes me really want a more detailed explanation of Susan's spell by Tedd, or for Susan to tell what her spellbook says about it.

[hkmaly 490]

15 hours ago, K^2 said:

Points 1. and 2. are acknowledged. This isn't a discussion about what can and cannot be done with magic, but rather what sort of EGS magic is most impressive when contrasted to limitations of real world.

Are you sure the world you live in is real?

18 hours ago, K^2 said:

No, it would not. Because we have all the different kinds of bonds to balance. Different attractive forces between particles have different scaling with elementary charge and distance. And you have to adjust elementary charge and Plank's constant just to get the correct atom size and correct energy difference between excitation levels. So you are already locked into a very specific reduction of elementary charge just to keep the individual atoms working the way they did. And then you simply don't have anything there to make sure the relative strengths of covalent bonds and hydrogen bonds is correct for the temperature ranges you had to choose to keep diffusion rates low.

Hmmmm ... you know, the more you talk about it, the more I think some space-bending-based-solution is better. Note that space is supposed to have more than 10 dimensions ... maybe you can shrink person by folding her into those other dimensions and this kind of space-bending will NOT produce big gravitation effects? (Yes, I know you can't fit anything except graviton into those dimensions NORMALLY ...)

10 hours ago, Haylo said:

Magic most likely uses options that Science doesn't know about. Instead of shrinking a complex life-form, put it elsewhere (perhaps in the space between the two halves of the world?) and go first-person with a fairy doll, which doesn't have to support life or intelligence for itself.

That's very interesting explanation, although it would STILL need some folding of space for the moving itself.

Although all details of EGS suggests that the shrunk person is really person and not a doll ...

4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

10 hours ago, Haylo said:

Dex's fairy can be created with only Dex's power level (probably made easier because it has neither persistence like Nanase's nor stored energy such as Susan's releases when prematurely dismissed), 

Point of order -- we don't actually know whether Dex's fairydoll releases energy when dismissed prematurely.  We haven't seen him dismiss one "on-camera" yet.  Technically we don't even know for certain whether his fairydolls are persistent, except that no one has said so, and we assume it would be noteworthy enough to mention at some point.  We don't actually know much at all about Dex's spell, so we can't assume what power level he's at.  For all we know, Dex can summon a dozen fairydolls at once, and they can all shoot little laser beams or swing tiny lightsabers.  ;-)

Even Dex might not be sure - it's possible he never tried to dismiss the fairy prematurely. On the other hand, he's pretty likely to try to summon some other action figures, and can be surprised that summoned Jedis have actually burning lightsabers ...

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

I accept this as canon.

I consider it future canon - that he will get this on awakening.

2 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

The kids didn't have all that much experience with summoned fairies - Nanase's fairydolls have always been permanent.

NOAH read more about magic that everyone of main eight combined. He would know.

2 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

The entire problem with creating and destroying mass can easily be avoided if persistence isn't needed. Say Dex fairy isn't persistent then there's no reason it couldn't be a complex illusion, basically the same idea as the holodeck in ST. Optical illusion complemented with forcefields mimicking surface textures.

I consider illusions something else than holodeck, but I agree with the part that Dex fairy - or the weapons Susan is summoning - is something like stuff on holodeck instead of real matter.

2 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

One problem might be the continuous power needed to maintain the illusions.

It's canon that the fairy consumes power, isn't it?

2 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

A summoning like Nanase's that creates a physical object would require a lot of energy for the initial summoning, but not much of a drain to maintain.

It would also mean that when dismissed the illusion will just fade without any huge release of energy.

Dismissing real physical object like that would level several blocks and create big glass crater. The released energy from Susan fairy is NOT huge and might be just remaining energy not yet spent on keeping it visible.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

It's actually interesting that Susan was able to summon and unsummon other items with no issue, yet the fairies go boom when dismissed. Makes me really want a more detailed explanation of Susan's spell by Tedd, or for Susan to tell what her spellbook says about it.

I would like to read whole book, but I don't thing Dan would be able to write it. Also, there are more interesting things there than the energy release.

One possible explanation is that the other stuff she summons is low-energy, as proven by disappearing after hit. The fairy is more resistant, actually able to hold stuff and touch people, which requires more energy.

 

[Don Edwards 548]

2 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

A summoning like Nanase's that creates a physical object would require a lot of energy for the initial summoning,

You ain't kidding. Energy equivalent to exploding a few dozen megatons of TNT.

Which is a lot of energy to just borrow, will-ye-nil-ye, for a summoning - and then, if the summoning isn't persistent, to put back later - without anyone noticing.

So it MUST be borrowed from somewhere non-magical people can't perceive - such as magical energy. The problem with that is shapeshifting species whose natural form is larger and heavier than some of their other forms - if they run out of magical energy, they shift heavier, which according to this theory would consume the magical energy they don't have. (As it happens, I'm writing some centaurs who can shift to human form, typically losing at least 800 pounds in the process.)

[hkmaly 490]

7 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

You ain't kidding. Energy equivalent to exploding a few dozen megatons of TNT.

Which is a lot of energy to just borrow, will-ye-nil-ye, for a summoning - and then, if the summoning isn't persistent, to put back later - without anyone noticing.

18 hours ago, K^2 said:

Thermodynamics is statistical. And rules of statistics are easily broken with a time machine. There are some other interesting ways of completely bypassing some thermodynamics limitations in QM.

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

they have that huge loophole of only really working for isolated systems and last isolated system was contaminated when Jenny Everywhere got lost on her way between Oz and Wonderland. She apologized of course, but that didn't fixed the experiment ... (The character of Jenny Everywhere is available for use by anyone, with only one condition: This paragraph must be included in any publication involving Jenny Everywhere, that others might use this property as they wish. All rights reversed.)

... but we can go over this again

9 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

So it MUST be borrowed from somewhere non-magical people can't perceive - such as magical energy. The problem with that is shapeshifting species whose natural form is larger and heavier than some of their other forms - if they run out of magical energy, they shift heavier, which according to this theory would consume the magical energy they don't have. (As it happens, I'm writing some centaurs who can shift to human form, typically losing at least 800 pounds in the process.)

If transformation put you in metastable state, that is, state from which you automatically revert back when you run out of magic energy, it means that the transformed state DO contain that energy, even if it's not anywhere obvious.

You can look at it as some sort of safety measure: sure, you technically do have some energy, but that energy is not free for you to use, that is reserved for shifting to your original form.

Note, however, that Grace will NOT revert from her squirrel form to any "default". She changes "true" form. Enchantments, meanwhile, do come with this safety.

[Scotty 1,061]

30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If transformation put you in metastable state, that is, state from which you automatically revert back when you run out of magic energy, it means that the transformed state DO contain that energy, even if it's not anywhere obvious.

You can look at it as some sort of safety measure: sure, you technically do have some energy, but that energy is not free for you to use, that is reserved for shifting to your original form.

Note, however, that Grace will NOT revert from her squirrel form to any "default". She changes "true" form. Enchantments, meanwhile, do come with this safety.

Tedd's research into enchantment duration suggests that there are 2 factors that determine the duration of an enchant, a person's resistance to magic, and the amount of energy available. For resistance, a person's natural resistance affects the natural duration of an enchantment, but a person can actively attempt to resist it and end it sooner, or will it to last longer. For example, tell Nanase, who has a high natural resistance,  that an enchantment on her would last an hour and if she doesn't actively affect the resistance, it might end after 45 minutes, it might also make it easier for her to actively resist and end it after 15 minutes, but harder to actively make it last 2 hours or more and then if might start taking her energy or ambient energy to keep going, which segues to the energy aspect, someone with a high energy pool can effectively make an enchant last longer if they desired, the excess ambient energy from the clog would potentially allow for an enchantment to last indefinitely which would account for the 15 hours Tedd spent in "Grace" form though his resistance (or rather, willingness) was also a factor but Tedd would have needed the energy to keep it going for that long.

The enchantment that Not_Tengu used on the college students made them oblivious to the fact (it also made them highly suggestible) so they couldn't resist it and they would have had lower resistance naturally, Not_Tengu implied that he was providing the energy with his statement that killing him would break the enchantment but that was kind of a false statement as the power was mainly provided by the excess ambient energy that was channeled by Not_Tengu and killing him wasn't necessary, just starving him of energy was enough. I suspect that if the energy clog didn't exist, it would have taken him a lot longer to gather enough energy to enchant that many students, and it would have required maintenance of said enchantment. He probably would have shifted the enchantment from the punch to something more appropriate and then siphoned a bit of his energy into it every day or so, kinda like Jerry powering the hammer artifact.

Grace generates her own energy and her forms aren't enchants. I suspect that her energy is only used at the moment she shapeshifts and isn't required for maintaining the form, in fact the form seems to determine the rate at which she generates energy as Greg found when observing the energy levels in the Verres house while Grace was weighing herself in different forms. Grace's telekinesis though does require Grace focusing her energy for a period of time, flying seems to use it at a lower rate and creating a shield to block with or when manipulating objects remotely seems to use much more, how long and how well she can do that also seems dependent on her form, but she is also training to be more effective with it.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

For example, tell Nanase, who has a high natural resistance,  that an enchantment on her would last an hour and if she doesn't actively affect the resistance, it might end after 45 minutes, it might also make it easier for her to actively resist and end it after 15 minutes

We was not told exact time informations during the Playing with Dolls, but it suggests that even Nanase wasn't able to end enchantment designed for hour in less than half the time.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

The enchantment that Not_Tengu used on the college students made them oblivious to the fact (it also made them highly suggestible) so they couldn't resist it

I don't think the "obliviousness" works this way.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

and they would have had lower resistance naturally

That was more important factor.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Not_Tengu implied that he was providing the energy with his statement that killing him would break the enchantment but that was kind of a false statement as the power was mainly provided by the excess ambient energy that was channeled by Not_Tengu and killing him wasn't necessary, just starving him of energy was enough.

It was easier for Not Tengu to keep the enchantment going due to ambient energy, but I still think the energy went through him. Also, I think that the spell ended because he lost consciousness, which would likely be generally as good as killing him.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

He probably would have shifted the enchantment from the punch to something more appropriate

Maybe not, maybe the punch would still work. But based on what he said, it would normally take days, not hours, for people to change.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Grace generates her own energy and her forms aren't enchants.

Not even enchantments are enchants when on her. Interference of Uryuom and Earth magic.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I suspect that her energy is only used at the moment she shapeshifts and isn't required for maintaining the form

Agree.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

in fact the form seems to determine the rate at which she generates energy as Greg found when observing the energy levels in the Verres house while Grace was weighing herself in different forms

I think that wasn't about rate she generates energy but some other aspect of power. But the rate is also possible - or, maybe what Greg is measuring is not rate of energy generation but it still correlate highly.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Grace's telekinesis though does require Grace focusing her energy for a period of time, flying seems to use it at a lower rate and creating a shield to block with or when manipulating objects remotely seems to use much more, how long and how well she can do that also seems dependent on her form, but she is also training to be more effective with it.

Note that both flying and shield are actually telekinesis as well. And yes, how easy is to use telekinesis depends on her form and gets better with training. Apparently, telekinesis is so much harder than shifting that it make sense for Grace to shift WHILE doing the telekinesis ...

 

[ijuin 572]

6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

You ain't kidding. Energy equivalent to exploding a few dozen megatons of TNT.

Which is a lot of energy to just borrow, will-ye-nil-ye, for a summoning - and then, if the summoning isn't persistent, to put back later - without anyone noticing.

By comparison, given the extent of the small explosions created by forcibly dismissing Susan's fairy dolls, only a few dozen kilojoules at most are released. (one gram of TNT is equivalent to about 4.2 kilojoules)

[The Old Hack 2,448]

11 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Are you sure the world you live in is real?

We've been over that. It is I who is made up and everything else that is real.

[Scotty 1,061]

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

We was not told exact time informations during the Playing with Dolls, but it suggests that even Nanase wasn't able to end enchantment designed for hour in less than half the time.

Yeah, her watch enchantment ended first because she had higher natural resistance, but Tedd's tests prior to that basically stated that the duration of an enchant wasn't static, that you could tell someone how long an enchant should last, and it would last that long, or not say and it would last half as long. Tedd also stated not being sure if resistance could be completely counteracted for someone who doesn't want to be enchanted, as in forcing someone into a form and telling them that it would last a day but because the enchanted didn't desire to be enchanted, they could resist it to a shorter duration. I don't think anyone else would be able to resist it like Tedd would though. It does seem that psychology plays a part as well though, but I think actively desiring to end the enchant would lower the duration more.

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think the "obliviousness" works this way.

Why not? if you don't know that you're enchanted, how can you resist it? There's even an NP story related to oblivious enchantments.

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It was easier for Not Tengu to keep the enchantment going due to ambient energy, but I still think the energy went through him. Also, I think that the spell ended because he lost consciousness, which would likely be generally as good as killing him.

Yeah, he was channeling the power. And yeah it's known that rendering someone unconscious is enough to break the enchantments, but Nanase and Ellen had to cause Not_Tengu to use up all the energy around the appartment in order to do that, and if there's not enough energy to power Not_Tengu's magic, then it makes sense that he wouldn't be able to maintain the enchantments on the students.

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Maybe not, maybe the punch would still work. But based on what he said, it would normally take days, not hours, for people to change.

Would you want to keep a bowl of punch around indefinitely? Or use something that wouldn't stink up the place after a while?

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Note that both flying and shield are actually telekinesis as well. And yes, how easy is to use telekinesis depends on her form and gets better with training. Apparently, telekinesis is so much harder than shifting that it make sense for Grace to shift WHILE doing the telekinesis ...

 

I wasn't listing those abilities as separate things, they're all using her telekinesis, but I was separating them based on their ease of use for Grace, she had stated that making herself fly was easier than moving objects, and using the shield is tiring too.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

13 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Why not? if you don't know that you're enchanted, how can you resist it? There's even an NP story related to oblivious enchantments.

That one was outside canon, and IMHO the obliviousness was part of the reason.  I don't think resisting a spell is a conscious thing.  The boar didn't think to itself, hmm, I do believe I am under a magical enchantment, should I resist it or try to keep it going?  The boar had no idea what was going on, it was innate desire and its effect on spell resistance at work there.  Unless you think every single person at the New Year's Eve party was both a closet high-degree submissive and were so impressed with Nanase they all wanted to be her instead of themselves, their innate spell resistance would be trying to end the enchantment.  It just wasn't strong enough to do so.

13 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Would you want to keep a bowl of punch around indefinitely? Or use something that wouldn't stink up the place after a while?

You could put the spell on the package of powder the punch was made from.  Or the bottle of booze added to it.

13 minutes ago, Scotty said:

 using the shield is tiring too.

Oh, look, another baseball fan!  And I could definitely see Greg dressed in a Cubs hat.  And T-shirt, jacket, sweatpants, and shoelaces.

Or he could be a Sox fan....but he'd go for the Cubs gear this year anyway, a lot of them have! 

[The Old Hack 2,448]

48 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Or he could be a Sox fan....but he'd go for the Cubs gear this year anyway, a lot of them have! 

They do? That sox!

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

They do? That sox!

Actually, it's pretty cool to see most-of-the-time-rivals come together to support each other.  We saw a bit of that when the White Sox won the World Series in 2005, too, although maybe not as much, given that they hadn't been nearly as long without a win.  Everyone seems to be jazzed that the Cubs won, except maybe the Cleveland fans, and even they seem okay about it.  :-)

[The Old Hack 2,448]

8 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Actually, it's pretty cool to see most-of-the-time-rivals come together to support each other.  We saw a bit of that when the White Sox won the World Series in 2005, too, although maybe not as much, given that they hadn't been nearly as long without a win.  Everyone seems to be jazzed that the Cubs won, except maybe the Cleveland fans, and even they seem okay about it.  :-)

Ah, that is good to hear. I admit that even here in Denmark there is some feeling of happiness that such a long time underdog has finally gotten its day in the sun

[Scotty 1,061]

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

That one was outside canon, and IMHO the obliviousness was part of the reason.  I don't think resisting a spell is a conscious thing.  The boar didn't think to itself, hmm, I do believe I am under a magical enchantment, should I resist it or try to keep it going?  The boar had no idea what was going on, it was innate desire and its effect on spell resistance at work there.  Unless you think every single person at the New Year's Eve party was both a closet high-degree submissive and were so impressed with Nanase they all wanted to be her instead of themselves, their innate spell resistance would be trying to end the enchantment.  It just wasn't strong enough to do so.

The boar wanted to stay big, so he wasn't trying to resist the spell by starving himself. Also animals can't resist spells the same as humans.

Also the main part of Not_Tengu's enchantment was mind control, that's where the obliviousness comes it, it's not that the students were ignoring the fact that they were enchanted, they had no choice because they were gradually slipping under a mind control spell. Rhea and Rick were having a normal conversation without noticing that the guys around them were turning into girls. Everyone else seemed to be acting normal even though they were changing, so there was obviously something about the enchantment that made them unaware and therefore unable to try to resist.

The part about making them all look like Nanase was Not_Tengu's idea for driving the point home that this was revenge for what Noriko did to him.

4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

You could put the spell on the package of powder the punch was made from.  Or the bottle of booze added to it.

It could, as long as it's not the liquid itself that needed to remain enchanted.

4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Oh, look, another baseball fan!  And I could definitely see Greg dressed in a Cubs hat.  And T-shirt, jacket, sweatpants, and shoelaces.

Or he could be a Sox fan....but he'd go for the Cubs gear this year anyway, a lot of them have! 

Maybe he's a Jays fan and their loss to Cleveland in the ALCS hit him just as hard as the Lucky Bunny Bounty Show being cancelled. I know it did me....

[hkmaly 490]

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

We was not told exact time informations during the Playing with Dolls, but it suggests that even Nanase wasn't able to end enchantment designed for hour in less than half the time.

Yeah, her watch enchantment ended first because she had higher natural resistance, but Tedd's tests prior to that basically stated that the duration of an enchant wasn't static, that you could tell someone how long an enchant should last, and it would last that long, or not say and it would last half as long. Tedd also stated not being sure if resistance could be completely counteracted for someone who doesn't want to be enchanted, as in forcing someone into a form and telling them that it would last a day but because the enchanted didn't desire to be enchanted, they could resist it to a shorter duration. I don't think anyone else would be able to resist it like Tedd would though. It does seem that psychology plays a part as well though, but I think actively desiring to end the enchant would lower the duration more.

The way he formulated the information made less likely Nanase would subconsciously prolonged it. Note: The first case is Tedd disenchanting herself and might be part of dangerous rarity. The second case, however, is him ending his own spell, which is normal and any magic user can do that, even Catalina if she just tried.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think the "obliviousness" works this way.

Why not? if you don't know that you're enchanted, how can you resist it? There's even an NP story related to oblivious enchantments.

Because it sounds like chicken & egg problem ... and too OP. And that NP story was about reality warping, not enchantments.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

And yeah it's known that rendering someone unconscious is enough to break the enchantments, but Nanase and Ellen had to cause Not_Tengu to use up all the energy around the appartment in order to do that, and if there's not enough energy to power Not_Tengu's magic, then it makes sense that he wouldn't be able to maintain the enchantments on the students.

They only needed to use up all the energy because they were not powerful enough to just break few cars on his head and knock him out that way. And the flying and his form needed more energy than the student enchantment. I think if he would notice what's happening, landed safely and transform to human on his own, he might be able to keep the enchantment going ... of course, Nanase could easily knock him out then.

11 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Quote

Would you want to keep a bowl of punch around indefinitely? Or use something that wouldn't stink up the place after a while?

You could put the spell on the package of powder the punch was made from.  Or the bottle of booze added to it.

Something like that, yes. Or perhaps the BOWL itself was enchanted and you could just keep refilling it.

5 hours ago, Scotty said:

Also the main part of Not_Tengu's enchantment was mind control, that's where the obliviousness comes it, it's not that the students were ignoring the fact that they were enchanted, they had no choice because they were gradually slipping under a mind control spell. Rhea and Rick were having a normal conversation without noticing that the guys around them were turning into girls. Everyone else seemed to be acting normal even though they were changing, so there was obviously something about the enchantment that made them unaware and therefore unable to try to resist.

Sure they were oblivious to the fact that the people around them are changing, but their subconscious definitely tried to resist slipping under a mind control. It just failed to resist because their resistance was not strong enough.

5 hours ago, Scotty said:

It could, as long as it's not the liquid itself that needed to remain enchanted.

Booze usually IS liquid.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

The way he formulated the information made less likely Nanase would subconsciously prolonged it. Note: The first case is Tedd disenchanting herself and might be part of dangerous rarity. The second case, however, is him ending his own spell, which is normal and any magic user can do that, even Catalina if she just tried.

Yeah, the first case was definitely Tedd disenchanting her self as Tedd believed she needed to zap himself back to normal. The second case was two parts, there was the disenchanting the extra girly form which was the same as the first case, Tedd just resolved to end the enchantment, no concentration, no trying to resist, just the though of not being enchanted anymore was enough. The second part of Tedd turning back into a male, wasn't disenchanting, it was changing his default form back to male. I can't even begin to think about how resistances work for spells that change default forms, it's possible that it would be harder to resist a default form changing spell and probably would require assistance to revert the changes.

18 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Something like that, yes. Or perhaps the BOWL itself was enchanted and you could just keep refilling it.

14 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Booze usually IS liquid.

I was referring to the bottle being enchanted, not the liquid itself. Of course the liquid would carry the enchant as well but as long as the enchant on the bottle is maintained, then it would continue to work.

18 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Sure they were oblivious to the fact that the people around them are changing, but their subconscious definitely tried to resist slipping under a mind control. It just failed to resist because their resistance was not strong enough.

There isn't any evidence that there was any type of resistance but plenty of evidence that none of them were aware that anything was wrong, even after the enchantment was broken, none of them were aware that anything had happened and Rhea believed that Diane had the punch after all.

 

[hkmaly 490]

45 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The second case was two parts, there was the disenchanting the extra girly form which was the same as the first case, Tedd just resolved to end the enchantment, no concentration, no trying to resist, just the though of not being enchanted anymore was enough. The second part of Tedd turning back into a male, wasn't disenchanting, it was changing his default form back to male.

I repeat: in both parts of second case, it was HIS spell (well, not his own, but mark spell, but still). This kinds of spell USUALLY comes with way to turn it off immediately (unless you are fighting with energy build ups). So he didn't needed his dangerous rarity to end it.

48 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I can't even begin to think about how resistances work for spells that change default forms, it's possible that it would be harder to resist a default form changing spell and probably would require assistance to revert the changes.

For start, there are two kinds of resistance: general spell resistance which resist the spell while being casted and applies to ANY spell (and normal people have it nearly zero), is affected by surprise and makes you not be affected at all, and specific enchantment resistance, which (obviously) applies only on enchantments, is resisting WHILE enchantment is in progress, even normal people have it at usable level and affects how long the enchantment will last.

So, yes: changing default forms would be harder to resist and it would never end on its own, meaning target would require assistance to revert it.

54 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Sure they were oblivious to the fact that the people around them are changing, but their subconscious definitely tried to resist slipping under a mind control. It just failed to resist because their resistance was not strong enough.

There isn't any evidence that there was any type of resistance but plenty of evidence that none of them were aware that anything was wrong, even after the enchantment was broken, none of them were aware that anything had happened

The enchantment resistance is not conscious process. They were not aware because they failed resisting. In fact, it their enchantment resistance would be affected, they would likely use their own energy to PREVENT end of that enchantment (although ... they might not have enough energy for this to be noticeable).

To be more practical: Diane has no training so she would be affected by the punch just as others. But I don't believe Nanase or Ellen would.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I repeat: in both parts of second case, it was HIS spell (well, not his own, but mark spell, but still). This kinds of spell USUALLY comes with way to turn it off immediately (unless you are fighting with energy build ups). So he didn't needed his dangerous rarity to end it.

Still, Tedd didn't believe that he should have been able to resist even his own spells, note he even resisted whatever it was that happened to Nanase's hair that affected Sarah's hair but not his. He was convinced that of the three of them, Sarah should have been the most likely to have resisted it. So his being able to effortlessly resist and end enchantments would have to be related to his rarity. Also, the first case was an enchantment applied by the TFG so it wasn't really his own enchantment, so being able to end that enchantment would imply that he would be able to cancel enchantments applied by other mages, unless of course the enchantment had a mind control effect that made him unaware that he was enchanted. Changing his default form was definitely the mark spell though.

 

16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The enchantment resistance is not conscious process. They were not aware because they failed resisting. In fact, it their enchantment resistance would be affected, they would likely use their own energy to PREVENT end of that enchantment (although ... they might not have enough energy for this to be noticeable).

That makes it a passive resistance which is what I was trying to get at, there's 2 ways to resist an enchantment, passively and actively, passive resistance is just natural resistance, it affects the natural duration of an enchant and can be lowered if the person wasn't expecting to be enchanted, that's basically what happened to all the students, they didn't expect it so their guard was down, even if any of them had some natural resistance, that they didn't see it coming meant it was even less. Active resistance would come from "Oh! There's a mage, they might try to cast a spell on me!" and bracing themselves for it increasing their natural resistance. Not_Tengu, in doing his research on Nanase, likely expected Ellen to have some tricks so he made sure to be prepared for anything, and therefore easily resisted the beam.

36 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

To be more practical: Diane has no training so she would be affected by the punch just as others. But I don't believe Nanase or Ellen would.

If they drank the punch, Ellen's and Nanase's guard would have been down, they likely would have fallen victim to the enchantment as well, it may have required more energy to keep them enchanted but considering the ambient energy levels... Mind you Not_Tengu wasn't counting on that happening, he wanted to confront Nanase, fighting and killing her would have been revenge on Noriko, heck making the students look like Nanase might not have been intended to do anything to Nanase, but "I killed your niece and remade my new flock in her image" would have likely had a huge psychological effect on Noriko, and...well, her entire family.