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ProfessorTomoe

Story: Monday, May 8th, 2017

64 posts in this topic

A different moral angle has been introduced to the story. Tedd has been concerned about giving everyone the ability to resist magic. What if he concentrated on giving everyone the ability to become the gender that best suits them instead? I can see f!Elliot talking about this in Tedd's basement. What would Tedd's reaction be, especially concerning the discovery of his own gender-fluidity and how the TF gun (and now his spell) facilitates what he feels?

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23 minutes ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

A different moral angle has been introduced to the story. Tedd has been concerned about giving everyone the ability to resist magic. What if he concentrated on giving everyone the ability to become the gender that best suits them instead? I can see f!Elliot talking about this in Tedd's basement. What would Tedd's reaction be, especially concerning the discovery of his own gender-fluidity and how the TF gun (and now his spell) facilitates what he feels?

That was more or less what I wanted to say, too. :/

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And remember, the TFGun don't uses human magic, not oriocco magic (not sure I typed it rigth...), it will still work after the magic reset.

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29 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

That was more or less what I wanted to say, too. :/

And what would Tedd's dad think? He already has a problem with how much time Tedd spends in female form. What would he do if he learned that Tedd was working on coming up with a way for transgender people to self-reassign themselves via the TF gun or some other way?

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Just now, ProfessorTomoe said:

And what would Tedd's dad think? He already has a problem with how much time Tedd spends in female form. What would he do if he learned that Tedd was working on coming up with a way for transgender people to self-reassign themselves via the TF gun or some other way?

At this point I am just about ready to say 'screw what he thinks.' By now I can't be arsed to coddle transphobic codswallop. I've had a bellyful of it lately. If Mr. Verres insists on alienating his child, I can't stop him.

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h My first guess: Sam. Sam fits the bill except for one caveat: Sam wants to be a guy on the outside as well as on the inside.

59 minutes ago, ProfessorTomoe said:

A different moral angle has been introduced to the story.

I was starting at least a paragraph on Elliot's moral quandary, but the Prof has beaten me to the draw.

My second candidate is "Ronin", Tony's sidekick, who kind of seems like he might be to Tony what Catalina was to Susan or Rhoda was to Diane. Then again, Ronin could also be to Tony like Justin is to Elliot (which brings to mind the question "Does Elliot know Justin is in love with him?" but that might deserve its own thread.)

My third is Tony himself. It would give Tony a somewhat better motivation for all the cruelty to Tedd. But it doesn't fit with Tony making a pass at f!Elliot before the dewitchery diamond.

My fourth is Voltaire. Volty did vow not to attempt to kill Elliot, but didn't promise he wouldn't mess with Elliot altogether. Voltaire's obviously spent a lot of time studying Tedd and Elliot, and would know that Elliot would go to Tedd with this, further discombobulating Tedd as Plans A and CM approach the upcoming Brawl at the Mall.

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43 minutes ago, Entropy said:

And remember, the TFGun don't uses human magic, not oriocco magic (not sure I typed it rigth...)

Have you been listening to some boating music lately?

I sense a new character, or Vladia, or Volty (with heck as witness, he is baiting).

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Just now, Tom Sewell said:

My first guess: Sam. Sam fits the bill except for one caveat: Sam wants to be a guy on the outside as well as on the inside.

I'm thinking it's Sam as well, that caveat is actually irrelevant. You're probably thinking that it is because Sam is trans male and Elliot only has female transformations (aside from the cat form, and Elliot should be able to get some male transformations at some point now that magic's sorted out with him), but the person messaging Elliot doesn't know that, they're probably just thinking "if a guy could transform into a girl, then a girl must be able to transform into a guy, what Elliot knows might work for both genders."

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12 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I'm thinking it's Sam as well, that caveat is actually irrelevant.

Could easily be, but it's more natural to think of the guy-to-girl transformation.

But there are other problems with Sam, plotwise. Sam didn't recognize Sarah as the couch-thrower from the webcast, which makes me wonder now how Sam now knows about it. Plus, we don't know if Sam goes to Moperville North. If Sam doesn't, he's less likely to have heard of Elliot's show.

On the other hand, Sam's under time pressure because the not-a-date with Sarah is set for Friday. Want to bet against it happening at the mall?

This could be a segue to a Wednesday comic with Sam or about that not-a-date with Sam.

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36 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

My second candidate is "Ronin", Tony's sidekick, who kind of seems like he might be to Tony what Catalina was to Susan or Rhoda was to Diane. Then again, Ronin could also be to Tony like Justin is to Elliot (which brings to mind the question "Does Elliot know Justin is in love with him?" but that might deserve its own thread.)

I dunno, seems wierd that "Ronin" would publicly spread the false idea that Elliot was gay only to later privately confide that he's trans. "Ronin" also would have to go through the trouble of making a new account so that Elliot wouldn't make the connection and I don't believe Dan would go that far.

41 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

My third is Tony himself. It would give Tony a somewhat better motivation for all the cruelty to Tedd. But it doesn't fit with Tony making a pass at f!Elliot before the dewitchery diamond.

I believe there is the condition of someone being in denial of an aspect of themselves so much that that they lash out at people with those same aspects. I don't think Tony fits the bill though as there hasn't been any hints at a potential inner conflict, he's comes off as a complete bully.

48 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

My fourth is Voltaire. Volty did vow not to attempt to kill Elliot, but didn't promise he wouldn't mess with Elliot altogether. Voltaire's obviously spent a lot of time studying Tedd and Elliot, and would know that Elliot would go to Tedd with this, further discombobulating Tedd as Plans A and CM approach the upcoming Brawl at the Mall.

That doesn't make any sense to me, how would it accomplish Voltaire's goal? Elliot tells Tedd about the message, Tedd might get frustrated about possibly not being able to help because of impending magic change, but Elliot did tell Tedd that "if magic wants to keep playing, it's gonna have to compromise eventually" so Tedd has been motivated to not give up completely and helping a few people would still be something Tedd would jump at, even if it's finding a way to permanently change someone else's default form without actually teaching them magic. Tedd did say that he might be able to make wands based on his mark spell, so he could make the wand, use it on Sam, and make sure no one else learns about it.

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This does seem to be the most likely way to get Sam back into the story.  Especially if Dan doesn't want to dump the "How much can I actually tell him?" internal ethical debate on Sarah.

As for not recognizing Sarah as the couch thrower immediately?  It has been several days since meeting Sarah and hearing about Elliot.  If Sam did some Google searches on one, he may have stumbled on the other.

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5 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

This does seem to be the most likely way to get Sam back into the story.  Especially if Dan doesn't want to dump the "How much can I actually tell him?" internal ethical debate on Sarah.

As for not recognizing Sarah as the couch thrower immediately?  It has been several days since meeting Sarah and hearing about Elliot.  If Sam did some Google searches on one, he may have stumbled on the other.

It's also possible Sam did see Sarah on the review show, but was either being polite or just didn't think that Sarah at the card tournament and Sarah from the review were the same person "what are the chances?"

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I joined largely just to post this.

Ever since I started following this comic, years and years ago, I always felt (knew, really) that this issue... this topic... was THE moral question of the entire webcomic series. Given the power to help millions of transgender and genderqueer and genderfluid and other non-binary people around the world, the restriction of gender-transformative magic / alien technology to so few people... so few (in this light) socially-irresponsible children... people who take for granted what they have here, is an utter travesty.

Mr Verres has no excuse, certainly. Tedd has little excuse, but they and their father grew up taking for granted their situations. I have been continually amazed however that Grace has not picked up on this issue yet. She made specific targeted efforts to learn about humanity's worst hours, but seemingly has failed to realize the severity of the tragedy of what every trans person has to go through every day now? Trans people in our modern age are persecuted, suffer, and even die every day because of something they did not choose.

This topic is so important to me (although I am not trans) that if EGS does not do this topic justice at this juncture, if it does not treat it with the somberness it deserves, I don't know whether I'll be able to continue reading it at all, continue to respect it at all, and especially whether I'll be able to continue recommending it to my non-cis friends.

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My Good Shive,

Usage of both "trans" and "transgender" are accepted in this case. Use whatever you think is appropriate for the situation.

~ Dee

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8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I dunno, seems wierd that "Ronin" would publicly spread the false idea that Elliot was gay only to later privately confide that he's trans. "Ronin" also would have to go through the trouble of making a new account so that Elliot wouldn't make the connection and I don't believe Dan would go that far.

Well, if "Ronin" is trans and/or crushing on Tony, I think he would be especially touched believing that Sarah was being so nice about her boyfriend coming out. It would pretty much be what he'd wish Tony would act if Tony found out about him.

 

14 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

This does seem to be the most likely way to get Sam back into the story.  Especially if Dan doesn't want to dump the "How much can I actually tell him?" internal ethical debate on Sarah.

I've been waiting for some indication that Sam will return. I think the most important things Sam has said so far were in the top two panels of this page. Although Sarah doesn't pick it up, we do, or should. And that's why the right way to go is for a direct conversation between Sarah and Sam. But I don't see how that could really fit the upcoming vampire-wave attack.

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6 minutes ago, Maginomicon said:

Mr Verres has no excuse, certainly. Tedd has little excuse, but they and their father grew up taking for granted their situations. I have been continually amazed however that Grace has not picked up on this issue yet. She made specific targeted efforts to learn about humanity's worst hours, but seemingly has failed to realize the severity of the tragedy of what every trans person has to go through every day now?

I think Grace has picked up on it, she just doesn't know what to do about it yet. Tedd's her boyfriend and Edward is the one who promised to protect her and has been very accommodating to her. She's gotta be worried that if she doesn't say the right things, it might make it worse, and I couldn't blame her for not wanting to risk it at the moment.

The fact that Dan's included this (as well as Sam's situation) makes it hopeful that there will be some resolution. The fact that EGS doesn't have any "snap your fingers and everything's better" for every issue gives it more credibility, these are real topics but the solution can't always be like giving Felix a mark that lets her change her default form (assume Felix's spell is the same as Tedd's), so it makes sense that Dan would want to solve the issue between Tedd and Edward in as real a way a possible.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I'm thinking it's Sam as well, that caveat is actually irrelevant. You're probably thinking that it is because Sam is trans male and Elliot only has female transformations (aside from the cat form, and Elliot should be able to get some male transformations at some point now that magic's sorted out with him), but the person messaging Elliot doesn't know that, they're probably just thinking "if a guy could transform into a girl, then a girl must be able to transform into a guy, what Elliot knows might work for both genders."

The logic is probably that if Elliot can become Cheerleadra more than once then he must have some way to change back ( from female to male) in-between.

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6 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

At this point I am just about ready to say 'screw what he thinks.' By now I can't be arsed to coddle transphobic codswallop. I've had a bellyful of it lately. If Mr. Verres insists on alienating his child, I can't stop him.

For now, I'm willing to think he's just ignorant about this and needs to learn, rather than outright that.

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Just now, Aura Guardian said:

For now, I'm willing to think he's just ignorant about this and needs to learn, rather than outright that.

I personally think Ed Verres never picked up on the clues that might point to Tedd as genderfluid.  Tedd's actions process differently if one simply assumes he is straight.

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51 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I personally think Ed Verres never picked up on the clues that might point to Tedd as genderfluid.  Tedd's actions process differently if one simply assumes he is straight.

This is also called 'straightsplaining' and is absolutely no defence. "His actions process differently if one simply assumes that gender is binary only and that homosexuality is a choice."

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26 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

This is also called 'straightsplaining' and is absolutely no defence. "His actions process differently if one simply assumes that gender is binary only and that homosexuality is a choice."

I'll have to disagree.  Everybody has to learn something for the first time at some point.  The less breaks you cut people for knowledge they don't have, the more anger, alienation and misunderstanding you create and the gods know this part of life doesn't need any more of that...

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I actually think this is more of a consequence of the writing.  Lot of years involved here and Dan has grown a lot.

I'm curious to see how he'll write his way out of it without making Mr. Verres look like a jerk.

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Edward Verres, like every character in EGS, isn't real. Sometimes it's easy to forget that because he's been well-fleshed-out over the past fifteen years and because, maybe, we want him to be real. Accusing him of closeted homophobia, or transphobia, or whatever-phobia and getting upset about it is over the top, even if his character is supposed to be so afflicted. Personally, I don't believe Dan has that in mind.

I think maybe the comic that can give people the whatever-phobia idea are what look like the flashback panels here. I say "look like" for a reason. They could be instead examples of what Tedd is afraid would happen or would have happened if he was open about his gender-switching.

(More to come in my next comment)

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7 hours ago, Maginomicon said:

I joined largely just to post this.

Ever since I started following this comic, years and years ago, I always felt (knew, really) that this issue... this topic... was THE moral question of the entire webcomic series. Given the power to help millions of transgender and genderqueer and genderfluid and other non-binary people around the world, the restriction of gender-transformative magic / alien technology to so few people... so few (in this light) socially-irresponsible children... people who take for granted what they have here, is an utter travesty.

Mr Verres has no excuse, certainly. Tedd has little excuse, but they and their father grew up taking for granted their situations. I have been continually amazed however that Grace has not picked up on this issue yet. She made specific targeted efforts to learn about humanity's worst hours, but seemingly has failed to realize the severity of the tragedy of what every trans person has to go through every day now? Trans people in our modern age are persecuted, suffer, and even die every day because of something they did not choose.

This topic is so important to me (although I am not trans) that if EGS does not do this topic justice at this juncture, if it does not treat it with the somberness it deserves, I don't know whether I'll be able to continue reading it at all, continue to respect it at all, and especially whether I'll be able to continue recommending it to my non-cis friends.

I think it is unfair to say that Mr. Verres has no excuse.

First, you have to consider that the purpose of having a "veil of secrecy" in a comic like this is to maintain some semblance of "our" world.  And in our world the government just voted to take away basic health care from millions of people for no reason.  It is not hard to consider that in the Shiveverse there is a large part of the government that is against using tech or magic to help people.  Especially people that they don't believe exist or don't believe should exist.  Verres has limited power to help people...pretty much his only choice would be to break the veil and I doubt that would work.  It certainly would sink him in a hurry.

Second, Uruyuom tech is inherently time-limited.  I don't believe we've seen any cases of a permanent transformation without mixing it with other magic or using it on a natural shapeshifter.   I wouldn't doubt that there are good hearted people who are trying to figure out a way to use the tech to help trans people (without revealing the existence of Uruyuoms to the public), but the time limitation would make that quite difficult.

And the fact that magic itself doesn't want to be widely known limits your ability to use magic to achieve the same effect.  Even assuming that Tedd's permanent spell isn't something as rare as he himself is.

I wouldn't be surprised if this story goes into some of the reasons why magic and Uruyuom tech isn't used to help everyone, not just trans people.  It's gotta be something Dan has thought a lot about.

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