story Story, Wednesday September 7, 2016

[animalia 64]

20 minutes ago, EmpactWB said:

I think Cap meant using so many pronouns when talking about multiple persons to whom the pronouns could reasonably refer (Tedd, Edward, Elliot). It's pretty clear who they refer to, though.

I only remember that for flying on the staff. Chisame was pretty freaked out by all the crazy right from her first appearance, there was a school club dedicated to keeping track of the giant glowing tree, and Negi had a spell that was basically the MIB neuralizer (not that I remember it ever working offhand). But with Ashley meeting Tedd, we might get to see the age-changing pills from Negima eventually.

To be fair Negi tried to use said spell on Asuna who we later learn as anti-magic abilites

[Tom Sewell 268]

1 hour ago, Don Edwards said:

Hair can be dyed, and a girl named Elliot might choose to go by her middle name or a nickname (like Susan does).

Or she could be something like "Jennifer Elliot Dunkel", perhaps with "Elliot Dunkel" being one of those hyphenated names without the hyphen, like Duff Cooper or Spencer Churchill (The male line of Churchills descendent from the Duke of Marlborough died out some generations ago. BTW, this is why the late Princess Diana was related to Winston Churchill.)

However, this isn't the big reason why "This is a thing that can happen" isn't likely to be an very effective solution to the problem. At least two witnesses at the Mall who are not Tensaided, Catalina, or Rhoda know who Elliot Dunkel is because they go to Moperville North. And unless Carol is incredibly clueless, she's going to remember that her little sister Sarah had a childhood friend named "Elliot" even if she wasn't interested enough to ask who Sarah's been dating. To really make the pink-haired-girl-Elliot-who-is-not-Elliot-Dunkel dodge work, Edward would have to set up falsified records for Mall Elliot. This is something he did for Ellen and Grace, but that was before he got booted upstairs.

Presuming Edward does that, there still has to be a "real" Mall Elliot to seal the deal. This is as doable as Justin's plan to conceal Cheerleadra's secret identity by having Grace pose as Elliot.

Of course, this doesn't cover the interesting factoid that "classic Cheerleadra" looks like Ellen. Do you think there could have been any students from Moperville South at the mall who maybe thought Floating Jesus said "Ellen Dunkel"?

[FailedSanity 4]

Ouch, poor Tedd. Casual transphobia is always a kick to the gut when it comes from someone close to you. I love that Dan is including a lot of this as background elements - because this is how it happens in real life. It's a constant background noise that never completely goes away. People mean well, and they don't know what they're doing, but it still hurts all the same. 

And I think that Mr. Verres is being a bit too optimistic here - if Tensaided is making the jump, I'm sure people with less inside info but more will to dig are going to make that jump, too.

[EmpactWB 21]

32 minutes ago, animalia said:

To be fair Negi tried to use said spell on Asuna who we later learn as anti-magic abilites

Yeah, and Negi stops the teachers from using it on Chao, so we don't see it working there either. (Wilhelm used something similar on Kotaro, which didn't last.) But if the weirdness censor were itself a magical effect, the spell would be redundant for mundanes. Also, the spell from the blimp, the one that would have made everyone more receptive to the idea of magic existing, would have been irrelevant too. They would have needed an area dispelling effect targeting specifically the censor rather than something to make people just chill out and accept less evidence than normal.

Hmm... Now I'm wondering about the time Negi got his arm turned to stone. Does magic resistance in EGS work the same way? Would there be that tipping point where a spell works slowly enough on a person with high resistance that it's actually riskier than just letting it happen all at once?

[Xenophon Hendrix 47]

The Dunkel residence really should have been inundated by the press and curiosity seekers when Elliot tried to go home Saturday night, although it's possible he spent the night at the Verres place.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

2 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

But in a world where an obvious alien wearing a shirt that says "Human" is taken to be a human...

I've always thought that the T-shirts must be enchanted to make the wearer look human, or at least be perceived as human, and the writing on it is either part of the spell, or a joke on the part of the maker, or perhaps they have other enchanted T-shirts for appearing to be Uryuom or invisible and the label just helps keep them straight down in Supplies.

[ijuin 572]

7 hours ago, exterminator said:

People with the same name, it's possible. People with the same name in the same town, it's a bit of a stretch. Someone with the same name, in the same town, with an accurate physical description... yeah, that's not gonna fly for long.

Ah, but as Edward said, the saving grace (not Grace) is that nobody saw Elliot Dunkel transform to Cheerleadra (or Cheerleadra transform to Elliot Dunkel). They saw the pink-haired girl transform into Cheerleadra. Only those people who already had some clues about Elliot (Catalina, Tensaided, etc.) were able to connect the dots immediately--those few who were reminded of male Elliot when Voltaire called Cheerleadra "Elliot Dunkel" appeared to be inclined toward the "nah, it couldn't be him that the glowy guy was talking about" conclusion.

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I suspect part of Tedd's reticence is because he knows that his dad knows the criteria for giving a magic mark -- telling his dad he got a transgender mark would be the same thing as telling him he has a strong desire and/or it's part of his inherent nature to be able to switch gender.

Personally I'm hoping that Tedd's dad isn't as condemning as Tedd fears he'll be.  Edward expressed an honest worry that spending too much time transformed as a girl wouldn't be good for Tedd.  If/when Edward learns more about gender fluidity, or figures out that it applies to Tedd, he might express relief to learn that there isn't anything harmful in it after all.  Maybe even gratitude to the existence of the TFG for sparing him gender dysphoria.  I can see Grace slowly influencing Edward, slipping bits of information on transgender and gender fluidity into conversations or leaving web pages open on the computer for Edward to find.

Edward seems to be running on the fallacy that exposure to girl-forms might reinforce any desire to be female--it's roughly analogous to the idea that many homophobic individuals have that hanging around with homosexual people will make someone who was otherwise borderline take the plunge--i.e. "hanging around with gay people and doing gay things will make you gay". I in no way condone the idea that it is possible to create such desires where they don't already exist, but some people believe that it is a real thing.

Alternatively, he may simply be refusing to believe that Tedd is not "perving out" on being able to see and touch female flesh as he wishes--note all of his warnings against doing anything "naughty" with Grace, as though Edward had expected that Tedd would try.

[animalia 64]

51 minutes ago, EmpactWB said:

Yeah, and Negi stops the teachers from using it on Chao, so we don't see it working there either. (Wilhelm used something similar on Kotaro, which didn't last.) But if the weirdness censor were itself a magical effect, the spell would be redundant for mundanes. Also, the spell from the blimp, the one that would have made everyone more receptive to the idea of magic existing, would have been irrelevant too. They would have needed an area dispelling effect targeting specifically the censor rather than something to make people just chill out and accept less evidence than normal.

Hmm... Now I'm wondering about the time Negi got his arm turned to stone. Does magic resistance in EGS work the same way? Would there be that tipping point where a spell works slowly enough on a person with high resistance that it's actually riskier than just letting it happen all at once?

I would like to debate that point further but this probably isn't the place for that. So do you know where we COULD go to do so?

[animalia 64]

13 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Alternatively, he may simply be refusing to believe that Tedd is not "perving out" on being able to see and touch female flesh as he wishes--note all of his warnings against doing anything "naughty" with Grace, as though Edward had expected that Tedd would try.

I hope it is this part

Edited September 8, 2016 by animalia
Can A mod merge my two posts together please

[The Old Hack 2,448]

8 minutes ago, animalia said:

I would like to debate that point further but this probably isn't the place for that. So do you know where we COULD go to do so?

General forums. Anything not relevant to the story page in question but on topic for EGS belongs in the General forums.

[Tom Sewell 268]

24 minutes ago, ijuin said:

note all of his warnings against doing anything "naughty" with Grace, as though Edward had expected that Tedd would try.

I read his warnings as "parent cautioning child against into rushing into things" such as marriage and parenthood. Also, Edward has to be afraid that Grace will get drafted into service like Agent Cranium.

[Scotty 1,061]

2 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Presuming Edward does that, there still has to be a "real" Mall Elliot to seal the deal. This is as doable as Justin's plan to conceal Cheerleadra's secret identity by having Grace pose as Elliot.

I would find it very amusing, if Elliot pressed the matter and asked if there was anything that could be done in case some people did make a connection, and Edward suggests the same plan that Justin did.

Elliot: "Well since you suggest that, Susan can't object now"

49 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Alternatively, he may simply be refusing to believe that Tedd is not "perving out" on being able to see and touch female flesh as he wishes--note all of his warnings against doing anything "naughty" with Grace, as though Edward had expected that Tedd would try.

25 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

I read his warnings as "parent cautioning child against into rushing into things" such as marriage and parenthood. Also, Edward has to be afraid that Grace will get drafted into service like Agent Cranium.

Edward specifically said no fooling around because he was worried about Tedd getting Grace pregnant, but then he mentioned the fact that Grace couldn't get pregnant in half squirrel form and then Tedd couldn't stop smiling. So I think Edward's given up on that by now.

 

Back on the subject of Elliot though, I thought Edward knew that Carol was Sarah's sister, I would think that even if the majority of witnesses assumed that a pink haired girl can be named Elliot, Carol would more likely be thinking "That's the name of Sarah's friend." and start digging around for more.

[ijuin 572]

41 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Edward specifically said no fooling around because he was worried about Tedd getting Grace pregnant, but then he mentioned the fact that Grace couldn't get pregnant in half squirrel form and then Tedd couldn't stop smiling. So I think Edward's given up on that by now.

The "can't stop smiling" would be why I was thinking that Edward might feel that Tedd has sexy shenanigans on the brain. That and such lines as "You can't argue with a hot chick showing that much skin".

[malloyd 23]

2 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Of course, this doesn't cover the interesting factoid that "classic Cheerleadra" looks like Ellen. Do you think there could have been any students from Moperville South at the mall who maybe thought Floating Jesus said "Ellen Dunkel"?

That seems pretty likely really.  Edward has a real point about poor acoustics and background noise.  Between that and nobody likely to be standing real close to a fight between a superhero and a monster, and neither Elliot or Dunkel being exactly common names.  I wouldn't be too startled if the press were currently all camped out in front of the house of somebody names Leah Duncan, because her Facebook page shows her with pink hair.

 

[svenman 0]

1 hour ago, malloyd said:

I wouldn't be too startled if the press were currently all camped out in front of the house of somebody names Leah Duncan, because her Facebook page shows her with pink hair.

Or maybe somebody named Ellie O'Duncan.

[Aura Guardian 57]

5 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Presuming Edward does that, there still has to be a "real" Mall Elliot to seal the deal. This is as doable as Justin's plan to conceal Cheerleadra's secret identity by having Grace pose as Elliot.

It's one in a million, but it just might be what's needed.

[Scotty 1,061]

2 minutes ago, Aura Guardian said:

It's one in a million, but it just might be what's needed.

Nah, it's only 1 in 3720.

[skington 3]

That's two wildly implausible theories that we've had from Mr Verres in quick succession.

Firstly: Susan and Diane are half-sisters, which would require Susan's cheating father to have got two unrelated women pregnant within days, and for either (1) the two mothers to be so biologically similar that they each gave birth only moments apart, despite 40 weeks' worth of pregnancy, or (2) that despite different pregnancies, they gave birth only moments part anyway (e.g. one was late, the other was induced etc. and it all magically aligned).

Secondly: if anyone accurately heard Colonel Sanders saying "Elliot Dunkel", they'll assume that because Elliot's a boy and Cheerleadra is a girl, there must be some unrelated girl who's also called Elliot Dunkel. Even though Dunkel isn't a common name - for instance, we've had no inkling that Elliot has nearby cousins or relatives.

We've also had Pandora tell Sarah that Mr Verres is not to be trusted with the secret of her new power.

Is this paving the way for a "Mr Verres isn't as all-knowing and benevolent as we thought" moment later on?

[hkmaly 490]

52 minutes ago, skington said:

That's two wildly implausible theories that we've had from Mr Verres in quick succession.

Firstly: Susan and Diane are half-sisters, which would require Susan's cheating father to have got two unrelated women pregnant within days, and for either (1) the two mothers to be so biologically similar that they each gave birth only moments apart, despite 40 weeks' worth of pregnancy, or (2) that despite different pregnancies, they gave birth only moments part anyway (e.g. one was late, the other was induced etc. and it all magically aligned).

Secondly: if anyone accurately heard Colonel Sanders saying "Elliot Dunkel", they'll assume that because Elliot's a boy and Cheerleadra is a girl, there must be some unrelated girl who's also called Elliot Dunkel. Even though Dunkel isn't a common name - for instance, we've had no inkling that Elliot has nearby cousins or relatives.

We've also had Pandora tell Sarah that Mr Verres is not to be trusted with the secret of her new power.

Is this paving the way for a "Mr Verres isn't as all-knowing and benevolent as we thought" moment later on?

As he said, he has experience with coincidences. But considering that Dan remarked characters can be mistaken around that page with "they are not twin" ... I feel similarly.

Note that he may be right about general public, but if we look at people who KNOW Elliot - including the teachers and lot of students, but also Carol ... all of them are very likely to suspect Elliot and to compare it with other cases where Elliot wasn't exactly careful.

5 hours ago, malloyd said:

Edward has a real point about poor acoustics and background noise.  Between that and nobody likely to be standing real close to a fight between a superhero and a monster, and neither Elliot or Dunkel being exactly common names.  I wouldn't be too startled if the press were currently all camped out in front of the house of somebody names Leah Duncan, because her Facebook page shows her with pink hair.

Unless Voltaire deliberately did something with acoustics to be heard better. But yes, the press IS likely to camp several other people as well ...

6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

7 hours ago, ijuin said:

note all of his warnings against doing anything "naughty" with Grace, as though Edward had expected that Tedd would try.

I read his warnings as "parent cautioning child against into rushing into things" such as marriage and parenthood. Also, Edward has to be afraid that Grace will get drafted into service like Agent Cranium.

Well I would also expect Tedd would try. He's teenager. Not warning teenagers about rushing into things is leading cause of pregnancy between people lacking sex education.

Also, Edward has to be afraid that HE will draft Grace into service like Agent Cranium. Although I'm not sure what will be problem with that, as he will need to draft Tedd too and it's not like Agent Cranium relationship with Agent Wolf is that bad affected ...

7 hours ago, ijuin said:

Edward seems to be running on the fallacy that exposure to girl-forms might reinforce any desire to be female--it's roughly analogous to the idea that many homophobic individuals have that hanging around with homosexual people will make someone who was otherwise borderline take the plunge--i.e. "hanging around with gay people and doing gay things will make you gay". I in no way condone the idea that it is possible to create such desires where they don't already exist, but some people believe that it is a real thing.

Unlike the homosexual idea, exposure to girl forms MIGHT have some adverse effects on normal people, especially if it includes "adding heterosexuality". Tedd was always gender fluid, but Elliot and Ellen accepting their girl forms MIGHT be literally magically easier than normally.

The major problem with this is that it shouldn't matter: if something makes you girl and like it, what's the problem? Besides breaking society expectation of course.

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

10 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

But in a world where an obvious alien wearing a shirt that says "Human" is taken to be a human...

I've always thought that the T-shirts must be enchanted to make the wearer look human, or at least be perceived as human, and the writing on it is either part of the spell, or a joke on the part of the maker, or perhaps they have other enchanted T-shirts for appearing to be Uryuom or invisible and the label just helps keep them straight down in Supplies.

Well ... when those shirts appeared for first time, we didn't know magic exists in EGS, but now? Makes sense.

8 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Of course, this doesn't cover the interesting factoid that "classic Cheerleadra" looks like Ellen. Do you think there could have been any students from Moperville South at the mall who maybe thought Floating Jesus said "Ellen Dunkel"?

Not anymore. She looked like Ellen first time Elliot transformed and later he deliberately changed the look. Nevertheless, I'm sure some people WILL though that.

 

[Stature 96]

Response: "Why cannot Mall-Elliot just crouch down or get behind Ashley, like how Danny Fenton would?"

Contra: "Oh yeah, magic has always had this flair for the dramatic."

[Stature 96]

9 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Of course, this doesn't cover the interesting factoid that "classic Cheerleadra" looks like Ellen. Do you think there could have been any students from Moperville South at the mall who maybe thought Floating Jesus said "Ellen Dunkel"?

Without knowing that Ellen is the girl reincarnate of Elliot and that Cheerleadra is actually Elliot, yeah, which renders Edward a bit too paranoid about the identity leak.

[Tom Sewell 268]

2 minutes ago, Stature said:

Without knowing that Ellen is the girl reincarnate of Elliot and that Cheerleadra is actually Elliot, yeah, which renders Edward a bit too paranoid about the identity leak.

I'd say this renders Edward insufficiently paranoid.

[Scotty 1,061]

51 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Note that he may be right about general public, but if we look at people who KNOW Elliot - including the teachers and lot of students, but also Carol ... all of them are very likely to suspect Elliot and to compare it with other cases where Elliot wasn't exactly careful.

Oh yeah! Principle Verruckt and several MNHS staff knew about Elliot being a girl back in the first Sister arc, hearing Elliot's name in association with a pink haired girl and Cheerleadra isn't going to be a surprise to them.

51 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Well I would also expect Tedd would try. He's teenager. Not warning teenagers about rushing into things is leading cause of pregnancy between people lacking sex education.

There are some that argue that sex education increases the likelihood of teenagers trying it at a younger age. Then again, our premier designed the curriculum to include some hardcore stuff, she's not very popular right now...

 

[malloyd 23]

1 hour ago, skington said:

That's two wildly implausible theories that we've had from Mr Verres in quick succession.

Firstly: Susan and Diane are half-sisters, which would require Susan's cheating father to have got two unrelated women pregnant within days, and for either (1) the two mothers to be so biologically similar that they each gave birth only moments apart, despite 40 weeks' worth of pregnancy, or (2) that despite different pregnancies, they gave birth only moments part anyway (e.g. one was late, the other was induced etc. and it all magically aligned).

Secondly: if anyone accurately heard Colonel Sanders saying "Elliot Dunkel", they'll assume that because Elliot's a boy and Cheerleadra is a girl, there must be some unrelated girl who's also called Elliot Dunkel.

For the first, pregnancy timing is simply not that tightly constrained - *normal* variation is 5 weeks.

For the second, I actually think he's right on the psychology of that for anybody who doesn't actually know Elliot.  Counting the indistinguishable "Eliot", it's actually more common as a female name than a male one in US census data (breaks 57/43 for Elliot, Eliot breaks 30/70 and is about as common), so most people would start off assuming girl even in complete isolation.  And while it's true we don't know of anybody with the same last name around here, living somewhere in the vicinity of where their families settled is pretty normal.  There are lots of people around here with my last name who are probably related somehow but I have no real idea how.  For anyone doing a search, Dunkle is more than twice as common as Dunkel, so they may well be starting with both names wrong.  The major hole is that a lot of people in this town *do* know Elliot by name already.  For anybody outside Moperville, Edward is probably right, but then my impression is most people outside Moperville pretty much dismiss news from it as nonsense anyway.

 

[Tom Sewell 268]

There's a quicker way to find the Dunkel family: Check for lottery winners. Another brilliant Edward Verres plan.