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ProfessorTomoe

Story: Friday, Aug 12, 2016

60 posts in this topic

So adding magic marks at random is something she rationalize, but making young teens fight a vampire isn't something the French immortals could.  

Odd.  Which also shows why Jerry reacted the way he did.

Blue And Orange Morality indeed.

And like I suggested a while back Disco Wizard has a bad case of Dunning–Kruger effect. He knows far less about both immortals and magic than he thinks he knows.

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That's it!? Rationalisation is all it takes to bend the rules into whatever suits her!? Sure it doesn't give her complete free reign, but still...

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So, the sentence is instant death, the verdict passed by one's own feelings of guilt. There's a giant loophole here if there is ever an Immortal who is so pathological as to be incapable of feeling guilt or so delusional as to believe him/herself to always be in the right no matter what.

As for the possibility that this is how Helena and Demetrius were reset, the immediacy of the penalty makes it sound as though they ought to have collapsed before they had even departed from Susan and Nanase. Did they only realize their guilt in retrospect afterward (e.g. upon seeing how the girls' fight vs. the vampire went), or is there something more here?

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I feel that can be constituted as a Murphy for the next immortal who will intentionally break the law.

We are not even outside Grace's mindscape yet.

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6 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

The interesting thing is that if you can just convince an immortal that they have broken their laws, that would in and of itself make them guilty automatically. Hm.

Hmm, I can see a scene at the end of the plot where Adrian winds up doing this.  Most likely he'd know what he was doing, too, although not necessarily.

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Now that we know how it works, it resembles swiss cheese more than anything.

No need to try and find a (loop)hole in it - it's right there, in plain sight.

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2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

The interesting thing is that if you can just convince an immortal that they have broken their laws, that would in and of itself make them guilty automatically. Hm.

I think that from what Pandora is saying, there has to be mens rea (a guilty mindset) at the time that the offense is committed, rather than retrospectively. It is not enough to find out after the fact that she has killed a human, for example--what is necessary is that she attacked him with lethal intent (i.e. voluntary homicide rather than involuntary). Given that Immortals potentially can cause nuclear-bomb-level destruction (Jerry said they might "destroy themselves and take a lot of innocent beings with them"), the intent to cause harm is alarming in itself even if the harm failed to occur due to external circumstances. Thus, "attempted homicide" would be treated equally with an actual homicide.

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8 hours ago, mlooney said:

So adding magic marks at random is something she rationalize, but making young teens fight a vampire isn't something the French immortals could.

Thing is, empowering and guiding is what the French immortals did. They up powered Nanase and Susan and gave them information.

Changing the subject, does not that pose in the fifth panel look like Edward?

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Is Pandora's marking spree exposing magic worse than Jerry's giving any woman or girl in the world the potential to shoujo-hammer the crap out of any obnoxious male? Seems to me that Jerry made himself a bigger loophole than Pandora to drive that one through, especially when you consider that Jerry's gift to womankind operated for something like a century, long enough for at least rumors of magical hammers to spread to every corner of the world.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, ijuin said:

So, the sentence is instant death, the verdict passed by one's own feelings of guilt. There's a giant loophole here if there is ever an Immortal who is so pathological as to be incapable of feeling guilt or so delusional as to believe him/herself to always be in the right no matter what.

As for the possibility that this is how Helena and Demetrius were reset, the immediacy of the penalty makes it sound as though they ought to have collapsed before they had even departed from Susan and Nanase. Did they only realize their guilt in retrospect afterward (e.g. upon seeing how the girls' fight vs. the vampire went), or is there something more here?

I see what Voltaire did with Tara as being worse that what Helena and Demetrius did to Nanase and Susan. Sure Helena and Demetrius should have gone to the whoever would be with France's version of DGB, but the vampire did attack Susan first so they could easily feel that giving Susan and Nanase the ability to defend themselves and kill the vampire was justified. Voltaire on the other hand, misguided Tara into believing Elliot did something to Andrea with the hopes that Tara would kill Elliot. He was also called out on lying, yet he apparently insists that his reasons are justified. So I think there has to be more to the reasons for Helena's and Demetrius' reset. Also I would think that based on what Pandora said, Jerry should have known about what Helena and Demetrius did cus he would have taken part in forcing their reset, the way he mentioned them lying to Susan still feels a lot like an assumption based on only hearing half of the story, but then again, we've only heard half of that story, and the parts that Helena and Demetrius have mentioned are from fragments of memories that just happen to correspond with what Susan's said plus tiny hints that there's a bigger picture involved.

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11 hours ago, mlooney said:

So adding magic marks at random is something she rationalize, but making young teens fight a vampire isn't something the French immortals could.  

I'm going to hop in the boat that thinks what they did was NOT a violation of Immortal law, but rather, something else later caused a forced reset.

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Wait…

Could Pandora rationalise that re-empowering the other side by clearing the clog is empowering, and that the necessary double effect of disempowering Moperville counts as part of said re-empowering?

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1 minute ago, HarJIT said:

Wait…

Could Pandora rationalise that re-empowering the other side by clearing the clog is empowering, and that the necessary double effect of disempowering Moperville counts as part of said re-empowering?

I think the clog technically de-powered the area on the other side, given that Voltaire is aware of the other half of the world, I would assume that it's common knowledge for immortals.

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2 hours ago, Aura Guardian said:

I'm going to hop in the boat that thinks what they did was NOT a violation of Immortal law, but rather, something else later caused a forced reset.

Me too. In France the two immortals guided and empowered a couple of kids - entirely within the rules.

As far as we know there are no circumstances where immortals are obligated to guide or empower, so their failure to notify the authorities was also within the rules.

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13 hours ago, ijuin said:

As for the possibility that this is how Helena and Demetrius were reset, the immediacy of the penalty makes it sound as though they ought to have collapsed before they had even departed from Susan and Nanase. Did they only realize their guilt in retrospect afterward (e.g. upon seeing how the girls' fight vs. the vampire went), or is there something more here?

A common theory I've seen floating around is that something attacked Helena and Demetrius and 'killed' them. It's been stated that a powerful mortal, like Agent Wolf, can defeat an immortal in fair combat (though they rarely fight fair) and there would be little need for self-defense or worrying about being attacked unless there would be long-term consequences of not defending themselves or retreating.

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"Fair combat" is physical combat.  Add magic and a human - Immortal fight tends to go out the window.

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1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

"Fair combat" is physical combat.  Add magic and a human - Immortal fight tends to go out the window.

The paranormal investigators of the FBI, like Agent Wolf and Edward, are likely to have favorable odds, and I doubt they would keep a fight to fisticuffs. Notably Edward didn't know how strong Pandora would be, but an average Immortal like Helena and Demetrius would certainly be a possible fight for a powerful human mage.

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18 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

The paranormal investigators of the FBI, like Agent Wolf and Edward, are likely to have favorable odds, and I doubt they would keep a fight to fisticuffs. Notably Edward didn't know how strong Pandora would be, but an average Immortal like Helena and Demetrius would certainly be a possible fight for a powerful human mage.

I misread that.  Interesting.

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FINALLY we got official explanation! Yeah!

17 hours ago, mlooney said:

So adding magic marks at random is something she rationalize, but making young teens fight a vampire isn't something the French immortals could.  

Assuming they were actually reset due to breaking the rules with Nanase ... which I don't think was what happened. Quite the contrary - empowering Nanase and Susan and guiding them to the vampire was perfectly ok, but maybe they were reset because they changed mind and wanted to help more directly ...

13 hours ago, Berserk Knight said:

Now that we know how it works, it resembles swiss cheese more than anything.

No need to try and find a (loop)hole in it - it's right there, in plain sight.

11 hours ago, TheAmazingKMan said:

This has got to be the worst justice system I've ever heard of.

I don't think finding loopholes in our justice system is that hard either. Look how many people are doing it.

7 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Is Pandora's marking spree exposing magic worse than Jerry's giving any woman or girl in the world the potential to shoujo-hammer the crap out of any obnoxious male? Seems to me that Jerry made himself a bigger loophole than Pandora to drive that one through, especially when you consider that Jerry's gift to womankind operated for something like a century, long enough for at least rumors of magical hammers to spread to every corner of the world.

Apparently, the rumors did NOT spread. There must be some protection on the spell against spreading too wide.

Also note that while the hammers MIGHT've exposed magic, they were NOT against rules - they were empowering and therefore ok.

Maybe the hammers were safe because they didn't revealed much about HOW magic works?

41 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
1 hour ago, Drasvin said:

The paranormal investigators of the FBI, like Agent Wolf and Edward, are likely to have favorable odds, and I doubt they would keep a fight to fisticuffs. Notably Edward didn't know how strong Pandora would be, but an average Immortal like Helena and Demetrius would certainly be a possible fight for a powerful human mage.

I misread that.  Interesting.

And note that the meaning changes a lot if you realize that Agent Wolf is no novice but one of most powerful wizards in mid-western US.

EDIT: Also this:
6 hours ago, Scotty said:

So I think there has to be more to the reasons for Helena's and Demetrius' reset. Also I would think that based on what Pandora said, Jerry should have known about what Helena and Demetrius did cus he would have taken part in forcing their reset

And on top of that, I think that if they were reset still in France, they wouldn't get to US to guard Elliot. No, they got to US FIRST and THEN they were reset, close enough to Elliot to remember they need to follow him.

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:
2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
3 hours ago, Drasvin said:

The paranormal investigators of the FBI, like Agent Wolf and Edward, are likely to have favorable odds, and I doubt they would keep a fight to fisticuffs. Notably Edward didn't know how strong Pandora would be, but an average Immortal like Helena and Demetrius would certainly be a possible fight for a powerful human mage.

I misread that.  Interesting.

And note that the meaning changes a lot if you realize that Agent Wolf is no novice but one of most powerful wizards in mid-western US.

Agent Wolf is one of the most powerful wizards in the mid-western US, but Edward's statement also included himself and Agent Cranium, and while they are certainly rather powerful and highly trained in their field, I'm not sure if they qualify as being among the most powerful in the mid-western US. They might, but we haven't gotten anything concrete on that (Though if Cranium's special spell is identical to Sarah's special spell, then she is likely a S-rank talent.) So the average immortal can possibly be tackled by your typical highly trained government paranormal operative, assuming fairness and stuff. 

Hmm, I wonder how well an Immortal would fair against a tank...

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So, if you only break the law if you do so willingly and knowingly; if an immortal reset and didn't pass the memory of the laws along to their new self, would their new self be immune to immortal law?

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